Nick Broste - Get Work and Stay Relevant as a Recording Engineer in 2024
Nick Broste is Chicago based audio engineer and musician who specializes in recording bands in ensembles in both studio and live settings. The spirit of removing the obstacles of artistic expression for artists is the driving force for Nick’s approach to recording and always puts the music first.
In this episode, you'll learn about:
- How the Role of the Engineer Changes When There is No Producer
- The Best Way to Record a Vocalist that is Playing Acoustic Guitar
- Microphone Polar Patterns and How They Shape the Sound of Bleed
- Tips for Recording Brass and Woodwinds
- The Importance of Talking About Budgets
- Bringing Value Outside Your Technical Skills
- When Songwriting Credit Should Be Given to Session Musicians
Connect with Nick
🌐 Website: https://www.nickbroste.com/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nbroste/
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Credits:
Guest: Nick Broste
Host: Travis Ference
Editor: Stephen Boyd
Theme Music: inter.ference
Transcript
This is maybe the worst time to, like, try to become a
Speaker:professional audio engineer in the 130 years of recorded
Speaker:music. Right? That's Chicago based recording engineer and mixer Nick Brosty.
Speaker:Today, he and I are going to get into some of the challenges of the
Speaker:job of engineering in 2024 and how to overcome
Speaker:them. Everything from defining your role and negotiating deals to the fun
Speaker:stuff, like picking studios and selecting microphones. When we talk about the
Speaker:one big thing every engineer wants to know, which is how to
Speaker:stay busy. Just get to know as many people
Speaker:without expecting them to hire you. The mindset that feels
Speaker:supportive to the music community, but is actually hurting us. They see it as. And
Speaker:this isn't a bad thing. They see recording people at a very low
Speaker:price is a service of theirs that they're giving to the music. They're like, I
Speaker:love this. You guys, like, don't make a lot of money doing what you're doing.
Speaker:I love to record, you guys. I'll do it for, like, this insanely low price.
Speaker:And to always remember that capturing the emotion is the true purpose
Speaker:of the recording process. And the take is just this beautiful thing, and you get
Speaker:the thing here in the back of the neck and,
Speaker:like, around the edge of tears. Like, if I can get that out of
Speaker:somebody and then feel it again while I'm mixing,
Speaker:and then have someone else feel that when it comes out of the
Speaker:speakers, like, that's success to me. So if you're running a
Speaker:studio or freelancing, working with indie artists, whatever, you're not gonna wanna miss
Speaker:this one. This is real world studio advice. So stick around for my interview with
Speaker:Nick Brosty.
Speaker:A lot of times, engineers are hired by bands and artists who are self
Speaker:producing, and I think that really kind of changes the role and responsibilities of an
Speaker:engineer. And I'm guessing you've probably been in that situation. I've
Speaker:done it a bunch. So what's your process like when you're getting ready for a
Speaker:session that doesn't involve, like, a third party official producer?
Speaker:Yeah, that's a. That's a good question. I think
Speaker:the first thing that really needs to happen in that case
Speaker:is maybe the defining of certain
Speaker:roles, or just, like, learning where the boundaries are for
Speaker:creative input and stuff like that. Cause sometimes.
Speaker:Sometimes I work with an artist and they just want me to engineer
Speaker:and almost never comment on the music, even though I tell them I will,
Speaker:but only in the service of helping them never to
Speaker:wrest power from the artist or anything like that. Right, but you're talking
Speaker:about things like that it's like, okay, you have a solid idea. You tell me
Speaker:what your ideas are, and I'll technically try to make them work for you.
Speaker:Do my best in that way.
Speaker:And that's usually a conversation with the artist that
Speaker:maybe they actually do need you to kind of help produce the
Speaker:record with them. But it's really about defining
Speaker:expectations for the two of you. You know, talking about how you're.
Speaker:How you should get paid, how you like to work, how they like to
Speaker:work, as opposed to just showing up to a room and
Speaker:there's a band there, you know, then
Speaker:obviously. So it's like, expectations. Like, what kind of input do you
Speaker:want? What kind of input do you not want?
Speaker:You know, like, who kind of has, like, the final word
Speaker:on things, which is pretty much the. The artist all the time
Speaker:for me, right? And then talking about budgets,
Speaker:how to do it, how we want to do it, how it should sound.
Speaker:And then. And that's when I'll start thinking about spaces. Like,
Speaker:should we do it in a cabin? Should we rent a church for a day
Speaker:or two? Should we use any one of
Speaker:the dozens of great studios here in town that all sound different and
Speaker:have different stuff in them and different gear and at different price
Speaker:points? Sometimes people have a budget
Speaker:actually thought out ahead of time. They're like, I have this much money set
Speaker:aside. So rare. To make a record is so rare. And I just wish
Speaker:people would, hey, this is my budget. Can we make a record
Speaker:for this much money? Instead of, like, can you tell me how much it is?
Speaker:And then people get a little freaked out, usually.
Speaker:And sometimes the production part of it comes out
Speaker:along the process. Like, I recently was working with a
Speaker:band, and I ended up doing a lot of work on the side
Speaker:when they weren't around and really choosing
Speaker:where we went and even adding some parts
Speaker:and stuff like that. And about, like, three quarters of the way through the process,
Speaker:they're like, oh, we're producing this record together, you know, and I don't
Speaker:take points or anything like that. There's no kind of no point with most indie
Speaker:artists. It is true. It's true. But, yeah, it's like, the budget,
Speaker:where to do it. And then, like, I just look
Speaker:at it as, even if there's. Even if it's not stated, I will still probably
Speaker:act in the same way where I will do everything possible to
Speaker:try to get that dream, that aural dream out of somebody's
Speaker:head into a format that other people can hear it and experience,
Speaker:if not exactly the same thing as close as we can get to the same
Speaker:feeling. Yeah. And then kind of work with them
Speaker:to find any means necessary to get there. Can we go
Speaker:back to the budget thing? Because I feel like there's a. It's a conversation
Speaker:that comes up all the time. Right. You get, like, blind Instagram messages or
Speaker:website emails or whatever where people.
Speaker:They don't have a budget expectation. And so even if they don't have
Speaker:enough money to work with said engineer or book some studio,
Speaker:if they don't know what their budget is, that
Speaker:person can't even help them. You know what I mean? Cause I would gladly help
Speaker:an artist if they can't afford me. I'd be like, this isn't gonna work. I'm
Speaker:not a good fit for you. But here's four people that are a good fit.
Speaker:And. And I feel like a lot of artists should just really have that conversation
Speaker:before they contact anybody. Producer, mixer, you know,
Speaker:mastering. Cause I'm sure you would do the same. You would probably help people out,
Speaker:like, well, yeah, call this guy. He's. He would crush it for you, and he's
Speaker:in your budget. Yeah, yeah, that happens. And I think
Speaker:the main time that happens to me, there's a great. I'm living in Chicago right
Speaker:now, and the city has this beautiful program called the D case grants,
Speaker:which are given out to artists every year. And I can't remember how many there
Speaker:are, but every time, a couple weeks before they're all due, I
Speaker:get a lot of people asking me to give them an estimate to put
Speaker:on their grant application. But other than that, it's like, some people
Speaker:may know how much the studios cost per day. Usually nothing.
Speaker:Yeah. But usually the first contact is to figure out how
Speaker:much it is for me to do something. Yeah. And they haven't
Speaker:really thought about. So they're just pricing it. And so it's really easy to, like,
Speaker:have them be. I mean, I'm not. I'm not exorbitantly
Speaker:expensive, by any measure, but, like, it's really easy to
Speaker:scare them off into. And. But. And this is. This is an
Speaker:interesting thing because it's like,
Speaker:strangely, many artists aren't really willing
Speaker:or don't know that they can negotiate. Yeah. Or
Speaker:ask questions, you know? Like, if I quote somebody a certain dollar
Speaker:amount a day, and I'll usually say it like, my
Speaker:normal book rate is this. But I'm happy to discuss it
Speaker:further. And sometimes they'll be like, oh, God, no, and
Speaker:just disappear. And sometimes they'll be like, well, yeah. I mean, what would you think
Speaker:if we did this, and then we can have that conversation and really make it
Speaker:work for them. This is something I wish I could teach more and
Speaker:more musicians to negotiate a. Not just for making
Speaker:records, but for their musical lives. It's like a
Speaker:huge thing. You ask for what you want,
Speaker:and the worst that can happen to somebody says no. But if you don't ask,
Speaker:you don't get totally. And it's the same on both sides. I ask for the
Speaker:rate I want. Some people I know can't afford it, so I'll just
Speaker:immediately be like, this is what I would normally charge. Can you do
Speaker:anywhere around this other range? Yeah, but it's something that
Speaker:bands really need to. Bands and artists really need to at least have an
Speaker:idea of a ballpark of how much it takes to get
Speaker:some work done. Cause you can do it pretty cheap. You can get it
Speaker:done depending on. What the project is. Yeah, you're right. There is a push and
Speaker:pull, and the more you're willing to communicate, both sides are willing to
Speaker:communicate. There can be a sacrifice made on either side. Be like, okay,
Speaker:I wanna work for 12 hours. Well, you don't have enough money to work for
Speaker:12 hours. We're gonna work for eight. Or, I don't need an
Speaker:instrumental mix or a vocal up mix. I don't need these extra things.
Speaker:Can it be cheaper? Or I only want two revisions. There's
Speaker:things that can go both ways. And if you have
Speaker:an open conversation and you understand what the needs of a project are,
Speaker:what the needs of a service provider, for lack of a better
Speaker:term, are, then you can probably find something that works if both people
Speaker:want to work together. Absolutely. And I think, I mean, that's the biggest thing.
Speaker:Most of the artists that contact me, I totally want to work with,
Speaker:you know? And I'm like, yes, I would love to make a record with them.
Speaker:And sometimes I do reach out even. And I'm like. I'm like, hey, you know,
Speaker:I've been seeing you play out for several years now, and I
Speaker:would love to work with you someday. Like, what are you doing this summer? Like,
Speaker:maybe we can book a date and lay down some of your new songs. And
Speaker:oftentimes I'll be like, I have no money. And I'd be
Speaker:like, that's cool. Can we talk about that? Yeah, let's find a way to get
Speaker:you some money. That's a whole other, like, to be able to bring value
Speaker:on top of just engineering something or mixing something to
Speaker:give advice and help an artist get to a point where they can work with
Speaker:you or work with the person that they want to work with is
Speaker:something that doesn't happen because things are so
Speaker:transactional sometimes. Yeah, that's, of course, the grossest
Speaker:part of what we do, and I wish I had somebody handling
Speaker:that for me. So I never had to talk about anything with dollar signs besides,
Speaker:like, who's picking up the coffee or the food today. Right,
Speaker:right. It is the hardest part of talking to people because, I mean, most
Speaker:artists don't have very much money because it's hard to get paid for
Speaker:them these days, you know? And even if you are getting paid, it
Speaker:takes, what, six, nine months for those royalties
Speaker:to actually roll into your account. So even if your release is huge, you're not
Speaker:making any money for six months. If you haven't advanced, then
Speaker:you're behind on those two. Cause you don't even get those royalties till.
Speaker:Yeah. Don't even want to get into labels.
Speaker:Yeah. No, no. Okay, so you kind of mentioned this earlier
Speaker:that you were, like, adding parts to something and working on something on the side.
Speaker:When you do kind of slip into a kind of a producer ish
Speaker:role, how do you navigate that? Is it really like
Speaker:you're looking at your rapport with that artist and being like, I think I could
Speaker:add something here, and you bring it up, or how do
Speaker:you approach that when you start to step into that role? I will
Speaker:usually bring it up. I'll be inspired if we're listening to something
Speaker:together or if I'm doing
Speaker:a bunch of editing before we finish the final arrangement,
Speaker:and I'm just going copying things or whatever, and if I have an
Speaker:idea, I'll just lay it down and send it in an alternate version sometimes. But
Speaker:if they're with me, I'll be like. And I'm not, like, adding
Speaker:every once in a while, it'll be something like a lead or something like that,
Speaker:but pretty rarely. Usually, I'll just be like, what about if we thicken this up
Speaker:with some pads or something? And we'll have that
Speaker:conversation, usually in the room together. And
Speaker:unless it's something that's totally the hook of the
Speaker:song, I'm just happy to be credited, you know,
Speaker:I'm not trying to get, like, a writing credit or anything like that, although
Speaker:that is an alternate option if people want to. If people
Speaker:don't have as much of a budget, they can put me as a split on
Speaker:a song, but that's a fuzzy zone to live in.
Speaker:And I made a really bad mistake, actually, early in my career,
Speaker:when I was mostly a player playing a lot of sessions, and I
Speaker:was doing arranging, and I was in my
Speaker:twenties, and there was a producer doing this session, and he's
Speaker:just started hiring me. I've done about three projects for him at this point,
Speaker:and he called me and asked me to do an arrangement. Went down in the
Speaker:studio, like, listened to it. They told me what
Speaker:they wanted, and I was like, okay, well, this is, you
Speaker:know, a huge part of the song, what I'm
Speaker:writing. And so when I came back to the session, when we were
Speaker:tracking, and I said, guys, what would you think about giving me a
Speaker:songwriter credit on this? And
Speaker:the artist and the producer just, like, looked at me
Speaker:with such an incredulous look that I just, like, felt. I just
Speaker:felt like my whole body felt like ice inside. And I was like, oh,
Speaker:that was the wrong. Cause. I kind of was cocky and almost.
Speaker:I didn't really demand it, but I was definitely, like, stepping way out of the
Speaker:boundaries. So I found the boundary that day. And
Speaker:since. And since that point, I mean, I learned that lesson,
Speaker:thankfully. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't be doing what I do today.
Speaker:But, yeah, I learned that lesson very early, and it's a slippery slope sometimes.
Speaker:People I know on bigger sessions, writing
Speaker:sessions. I know you did a lot of writing sessions and stuff like that for
Speaker:a long time. Yeah, I know that stuff comes up all the time, but I
Speaker:don't really consider myself a writer. If I change
Speaker:one lyric, I'm not. It's all just for the song.
Speaker:You know, if I'm, like, writing a chorus, sure. It's a
Speaker:different thing. And the player thing is actually really
Speaker:interesting, especially if you think about, like, popular music. Like, if you're a bass player
Speaker:that gets hired to come in to play on, like, an r and b or
Speaker:pop track or make a loop for the hook of a hip hop
Speaker:track, bass is playing a huge role in that track. So at what
Speaker:point when it's the only thing playing under the
Speaker:rapper or under the vocal for half the song, at what
Speaker:point do you deserve, you
Speaker:know, songwriting? Yeah, but at the same time, you think about, like,
Speaker:classic, you know, session guitarists who
Speaker:played iconic guitar solos that we all know and can
Speaker:singhe. They don't have songwriting. No, they got paid for that
Speaker:session in the. Does James Jamerson have any credits for his amazing bass playing?
Speaker:No. And he's like, define that style. Yeah,
Speaker:absolutely. Or, like, Pino Palladino
Speaker:on D'Angelo's voodoo. Yeah, those bass
Speaker:lines are huge part of that record, but I don't know.
Speaker:I'd have to go look. But it's probably. He probably didn't get a writing credit.
Speaker:I strongly doubt it. But
Speaker:it's interesting if you think about the way music, especially the way music's made
Speaker:now, and you can grab something from a writing session, and
Speaker:I feel. Like it's probably less poise, a little less poisonous now, after
Speaker:listening to lots of. You ever listen to a history of rock
Speaker:music and 500 songs? No. That podcast? No. It is
Speaker:incredible. It's very in depth,
Speaker:and I think he's 100 and 7180 episodes in,
Speaker:and I've completely caught up to all of them. But a lot of what he
Speaker:talks about is the legal
Speaker:and the mob and stealing people's credits and then
Speaker:putting out a song, but changing one word and just all of the
Speaker:intellectual property, basically theft.
Speaker:And that happened right
Speaker:up pretty much until today. Yeah. But, like, before
Speaker:the eighties, just insane. What would go
Speaker:on all the time. Yeah. So I feel like it's a little. Maybe a little
Speaker:healthier environment where people might talk about it more today.
Speaker:Yeah, it's definitely. I think a lot of people are just afraid of it,
Speaker:too. I did a session with an artist who wrote a
Speaker:song. You know, we were all in the room. We didn't listen to any music.
Speaker:And she ultimately never wanted to release it because it. It was really reminiscent
Speaker:of something else. Once she listened to it a few weeks later and
Speaker:felt uncomfortable putting it out because people would accuse her of stealing it. And
Speaker:it's like, we all listen, we're all music fans. We all love
Speaker:stuff. It's gonna come out in us. So it's not like you're not
Speaker:always stealing something on purpose, but
Speaker:it happens on accident. Yeah. So you
Speaker:talked about when you were a player, and I know you were. Is it a
Speaker:trombone player? Yes. Yeah. So I'm guessing that you probably
Speaker:will go back to engineering here. Particular on how you mic brass. Are
Speaker:you a big. Do you get to record a lot of brass and
Speaker:horns? Kind of particular? It
Speaker:depends on what. There's so many ways to do it right. And,
Speaker:like. And this is a question that gets asked me, like, a lot. Like, well,
Speaker:how do you mic up horns? Well, how many are there? What's the
Speaker:song? What room are we in? Are you guys gonna
Speaker:kill it all together? So I can just use a stereo pair or, like,
Speaker:you know, really depends for myself. I'm very particular because I know
Speaker:the way the sound projects out of my horn. There's, like, two mics.
Speaker:I really like to use one. I don't own but the other one I do.
Speaker:So I'm particular about that because if I get it wrong and, like,
Speaker:live sound, people think I'm crazy. Like, no, this is how it
Speaker:should be. And they're like, but I'm like, no,
Speaker:trust me for my own
Speaker:sound. Cause if I put it in a spot where people would normally put it,
Speaker:it gets kind of airy sounding. So I found this thing, but it also.
Speaker:It really depends on the player and how they're playing. You know, some people
Speaker:move a lot when they're playing. I've been doing a lot of live
Speaker:recording this year or two, and some people's sound is just completely
Speaker:different. But in general, for, like, brass, like, generally ribbons.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah. Or condenser mics. You know, it doesn't really
Speaker:matter as long as it sounds like the horn and not too
Speaker:close. Yeah. There's a whole history of, especially
Speaker:trombonis playing with, like, the bell, like
Speaker:this. Like, inside, like, in very close. And
Speaker:it's like. It starts to sound like a french horn, and they play very quietly.
Speaker:Yeah. And that doesn't really appeal to me. But, yeah, there's lots of ways
Speaker:to do it, but a lot of it has to do with the song and
Speaker:how the parts are fitting in there. You know, if it's a jazz
Speaker:quintet with horns, that's gonna be way
Speaker:different than, like, a rock song with a
Speaker:horn section. Right, right. The features are gonna be
Speaker:different. The saxophone, though, that's a very particular one,
Speaker:because the sound doesn't come straight out of it. It
Speaker:irradiates in all kinds of directions, and a lot of it off to the
Speaker:right. So that really depends on the instrument
Speaker:and the person's tone. The harsher it is, the darker the rhythm I'm going to
Speaker:use on a saxophonist, the warmer it is, the more two b condenser I'm going
Speaker:to get, you know? Yeah. You mentioned french horn. Are
Speaker:you. Are you, like, an over the top french horn
Speaker:micr? So you're micing the back, or are you micing the horn? Sometimes
Speaker:I'll put them against. Close to the wall, you
Speaker:know, and then, like, I point it at them. Yes. Because I think
Speaker:the point of the french horn is to not have it be totally in your
Speaker:face. Yeah, yeah. That was a thing we did at Capitol all the
Speaker:time. Whenever there was french horns for usually, like, a scoring
Speaker:date, like in an orchestra. Yeah, yeah. We would put something hard behind them, and
Speaker:then you mic them above. That was one of the first times I was in
Speaker:a studio and I looked at it. And I was like, the fuck is going
Speaker:on here? Doesn't seem to make sense, but in the end it
Speaker:does. If you go to orchestra concerts, you'll see it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker:totally, totally. And then what about so. So saks, you were saying it comes out
Speaker:the player, right? Yes. Some of it comes out of the
Speaker:bell, but most of the sound only comes out of the bell when all the
Speaker:keys are pushed down. Right? Right. And the sound is escaping out of
Speaker:the keys. Same with flute, like any woodwinds, like bassoon,
Speaker:all that stuff. So it projects different frequencies, come out the
Speaker:sides. So it's really hard to mic a bass saxophone with one
Speaker:microphone. And I have a few friends that have bass saxophones in town.
Speaker:Um, you can do it, but, like, if there's other people, who's in the
Speaker:room, is the drummer in the room, too, which is very common
Speaker:thing with me, you know? Very common. Like, I can't put
Speaker:the mic 5ft away from the sax to get the full,
Speaker:huge sound of it. You know, it's got to be close, maybe two mics. It
Speaker:really depends on the player, how they move, how tall they are,
Speaker:and what else is in the room. The big thing is what else is in
Speaker:the room. Yeah. What can you get away with? Basically getting the
Speaker:bleed control or moving them closer to the drums so that the
Speaker:delay is less or stuff like that. Well,
Speaker:let's keep going down that road, because I was going to ask you about just
Speaker:mic selection in general. Right. Because I started out as a kid at
Speaker:capital, we had 16 U 67s. Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, it's just ridiculous. Like, what do you want to mic your orchestra with?
Speaker:U 67s? So then when I get out in the world, you start recording indie
Speaker:bands. Like, you're going to all the smaller studios in town. I had a really
Speaker:hard time because I was coming from this, like, mic locker
Speaker:that's unrealistic into the real world. And so I
Speaker:always felt like I was making compromises, you know, picking. Picking what mic should
Speaker:go on, what. And then when you think about what's in the room and you're
Speaker:like, well, I would love for this to be figure eight, but I also really
Speaker:need to use this microphone over here. So, band in the
Speaker:room, tracking date with, like, three, four people.
Speaker:What are you thinking when you're doing mic selection?
Speaker:Well, the first thing is where they're all going to be in the room.
Speaker:Like, if there's booths, who's going to be in the booth?
Speaker:I have a perfect example coming up that we're doing
Speaker:at electrical audio. Rip Steve as well. And
Speaker:big love to all the electrical audio guys. It was a huge
Speaker:loss, but I'm going to be there soon. And it's a
Speaker:band with kind of a normal rhythm section instruments, and
Speaker:then two people playing flute, saxophone.
Speaker:And this particular room at
Speaker:electrical is very tall and very reverberant. And
Speaker:so how do we want the drums to sound? You set the drums up in
Speaker:there. They're going to sound big no matter what, but the horns will be isolated.
Speaker:Or are we going to put the drums and the amps in the other room?
Speaker:Like there's all these different sound possibilities. Yeah. And
Speaker:basically, I'll. Once I figure out where everybody can be to where they can see
Speaker:each other and communicate, which is also very important, they need to feel like they
Speaker:are playing together and somebody's not over here like this,
Speaker:like just staring off at a wall or hidden behind a
Speaker:baffle. I'll figure that out. And that arrangement will also,
Speaker:I'll be trying to take the acoustics into my, you know,
Speaker:like often I have to record piano in the same room as the drums.
Speaker:And in that case, I slide the piano up as close as I can
Speaker:possibly get to the drums and put as many baffles between them as I can
Speaker:so that the bleed is shorter so it doesn't make the drums sound forever away.
Speaker:Right. But microphone wise, I mean,
Speaker:that's a great use for figure eight mics.
Speaker:Figure eight mics you can set up. If I had
Speaker:to set up these two flute players next to the drums, I would probably put
Speaker:them one on each side with a figure eight coming down
Speaker:like. Like this with the null point pointed at the drums. Maybe they're
Speaker:angled a little bit and pick up some bleed in the room. Sure.
Speaker:But for the most part, I'm going to get, like a clean signal that I
Speaker:can turn up and down without making the drums sound forever away. Yeah, and
Speaker:some mics, this is another big thing, like knowing the patterns
Speaker:and how they sound and how they actually pick up sound. This
Speaker:is a big thing that I think a lot of younger people are like, oh,
Speaker:omni picks up everything, you know, or, like
Speaker:cardioid. Well, that's, you know, you get a lot of separation from
Speaker:the back or whatever, but it also, like, it warps the sound
Speaker:of the microphone, too. Like, you know, like Al Schmidt
Speaker:using a lot of omni mics. It's just very natural
Speaker:tone. You don't get all this weird frequency twisting from
Speaker:the back and stuff like that. And that's also the advantage of
Speaker:really nice small diaphragm condensers as well.
Speaker:Like sheps, some of the
Speaker:Sennheisers, neumanns and stuff like that that
Speaker:people use in orchestral recording. That bleed coming in from the sides, which
Speaker:is. Is kind of the most important thing.
Speaker:So. Yeah, so when I'm thinking about that for a band, I mean,
Speaker:I'll have a couple mic options in mind if they're available
Speaker:at the studio. Because most of the studios I work with have a pretty good
Speaker:selection. But getting started, you know,
Speaker:it's. Like. Back when I just
Speaker:had like a AKG Perception 110. A
Speaker:57 in an inbox. Yeah, yeah. You do what you
Speaker:can. Yeah. By any means necessary. You mess with
Speaker:stuff. He's 57 above the kit.
Speaker:And the perception in front of the bass
Speaker:drum. But really, the patterns and how they interact
Speaker:is a real big thing. If you can get away with
Speaker:using omni mics in different places, you're going to get this beautiful, natural tone. If
Speaker:you got isolation, you know, putting a mic
Speaker:in omni up against a upright bass or close to it
Speaker:is going to give you certain advantages. You get really nice low end. But
Speaker:even different microphones, like a Shep's
Speaker:omni mic functions differently than
Speaker:like say, a U 67 in omni because
Speaker:it's just one capsule. And the same in
Speaker:figure eight, too. Like a ribbon's figure eight will be much
Speaker:tighter. Just because there's physically no way for the
Speaker:ribbon to move this way than a
Speaker:67 in figure eight as well, too. So you get more isolation. Yeah.
Speaker:And this comes up a lot if you're having a guitarist who's singing at the
Speaker:same time, you know, and you get a
Speaker:couple 44s or just whatever, like cascade fatheads, whatever. You can
Speaker:find any mic and make these little
Speaker:flippy patterns to give yourself some isolation.
Speaker:And we actually did this with 267s. Tried
Speaker:that for 67 or c
Speaker:twelve. And then we did it with two forty four s and the
Speaker:forty four. Even though it took a lot more gain.
Speaker:Like, the isolation was easily twice as much. Yeah.
Speaker:And that just comes from like years of playing around with microphones
Speaker:and thinking about how they interact in space. But once you learn how to
Speaker:do that and what does what. And what sounds good on things.
Speaker:I mean, if you don't have any money, this is a good reason
Speaker:to try to go to a studio and try stuff out, you
Speaker:know? Yeah, totally. And I mean, opposite of your
Speaker:story. One of the first studios I started working out of, I wasn't an
Speaker:employee, but they were the first place I went to that had
Speaker:87s they had, like, RCA ribbons. They had some really cool
Speaker:mics. I didn't use the U 87s for the first year
Speaker:and a half that I worked there because I was actually
Speaker:afraid of liking them. You know, I was like, yeah, I'm not going to mess
Speaker:with those. I don't want to, like, find out that they're amazing because I can't
Speaker:afford them. But then you didn't like them anyway. Do you like. Eighty seven s.
Speaker:I mean, they work for what, you know, they're a good mic. They
Speaker:have their purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have their purpose. Yeah. Like, I wouldn't
Speaker:mind owning a pair here. That would be great. But I was like, I'm
Speaker:not going to fall in love with a $3,000 microphone. I just can't. Yeah, it's
Speaker:not an option. Not an option. Yeah, exactly. I want to go back
Speaker:to the figure eight on guitar and
Speaker:vocal because I feel like the first time I saw and
Speaker:heard that, I was like, oh, my God,
Speaker:that's how it's done. And I feel like so many people always really fight with
Speaker:that. But it is crazy to hear that. If you
Speaker:get that null point right at the vocal and then you can get that.
Speaker:Whatever you want to use for the vocal to be very close to it, and
Speaker:you kind of have this big thing right in front of you. It is
Speaker:night and day, the separation that you have between those instruments in
Speaker:comparison to when you just. So many people. What? Put an sm seven on the
Speaker:vocal and a 451 or. Sure. 81 on
Speaker:the acoustic guitar. It is like a whole different phase experience. You're just
Speaker:like, oh, wow, this actually, this. I can use both of these as much
Speaker:as I want. So everybody should experiment with that.
Speaker:Yeah, you can pan them in stereo you want. Like, yeah, it's a great
Speaker:thing. Especially if you find like a, you know, like a stereo ribbon,
Speaker:which can get a little weird this way. Yeah, but, yeah, it's
Speaker:incredible. And that's that pattern thing. Like, even if you use
Speaker:2414s in figure eight, you can get pretty
Speaker:close to that. But it's not like the ribbon because the ribbon will literally
Speaker:not move to the side or up and down. I never
Speaker:thought about the physical limitations of the ribbon. That's actually. Yeah,
Speaker:that's true. That's really true. And this is broken. Yeah. So. And you'll get more
Speaker:bleed in the back. But that can be nice. Sometimes if you're in
Speaker:a nice space, you get a little air. I did.
Speaker:There's an interview for listeners. I'd have to. I'll put it in the
Speaker:show notes. But I had a conversation with Derek Bargare from Vanguard. Have you used
Speaker:any of his mics? Oh, yeah, I'm about to do a session where they've got
Speaker:a bunch of his mics. Yeah, yeah. Making
Speaker:great stuff. But he spent a lot of time talking about like, you know, well,
Speaker:if you can only afford one microphone, it's gonna sound different. Like, if it's too
Speaker:bright here, then sing a little bit off to the side and it's gonna be
Speaker:a different tone. And he's like, don't, you know, don't buy ten microphones
Speaker:if you can't afford it. Just figure out all the things that your one microphone
Speaker:can do. And understanding polar patterns and understanding how microphones pick
Speaker:up as you go off to the side and stuff like that. It's
Speaker:understanding all your tools, you know? So here's an example.
Speaker:One of the younger musicians I know here in town, we
Speaker:were talking one night and he said, he said, man, you know, I bought this
Speaker:Neumann cam, like 184, the cardioid one, I think.
Speaker:And he's like, it's just, I've been using
Speaker:on my acoustic guitar, but it's just so brighten. Like, it's
Speaker:unbelievably bright. And I was like, yeah, man, it's a mic designed to be like,
Speaker:put 9ft above an instrumentalist. It's not
Speaker:meant to be like an amazing close mic. It's meant for
Speaker:being further away. I was like, just back it up a couple feet
Speaker:or don't point it right at the instrument. Or like, just find the
Speaker:spot. And he messaged me back a couple days later.
Speaker:He's like, thank you so much. I was about to sell this thing and I
Speaker:was like, yeah. He's just like, if you want less high end, just put it
Speaker:further away. I don't know. I always think of that as a dark microphone as
Speaker:well, or at least the 84 is the original. So I always think
Speaker:of it as a warmer, darker along the lines of what we're talking
Speaker:about. Your work as an engineer producer
Speaker:mixer feels very natural and organic, but also
Speaker:vibey and analog. And I think a little bit of this answer
Speaker:we've kind of touched on. But do you have any tips for
Speaker:actively going after that sound if you're a young engineer? Because I feel like
Speaker:when you're working with Bandst, what you're doing
Speaker:is what so many bands want. Not like a solo pop
Speaker:artist, but you have a sound that I think fits a lot of really cool
Speaker:music. Cool. I mean, thank
Speaker:you? Yeah. Sonic tips for an engineer that's trying to
Speaker:get that organic sound.
Speaker:Yeah, I think what I just said is actually maybe the way
Speaker:to think about it. And, I mean, there's nothing wrong with. With
Speaker:beating stuff up and, like, and doing cool things to
Speaker:stuff, but a lot of it is
Speaker:just capturing the sound, the musicians making.
Speaker:And a lot of the worlds I work in, especially with
Speaker:people that work more in the jazz, improvised,
Speaker:creative improvisation world, those people are
Speaker:working on the sounds that they want to play with all the time.
Speaker:They know what they want to sound like. So just, like, I've got a great
Speaker:source. I'm just trying not to mess it up and make sure.
Speaker:Capture it in a nice way. And a lot of that is just,
Speaker:like. I think a lot of it comes from a being.
Speaker:There's a lot of. Seems like a lot of engineers who used to be
Speaker:trombonists. I keep running into more and more
Speaker:people that played the trombone through high school, maybe even
Speaker:college and stuff like that, and then gave it up and started engineering. I mean,
Speaker:I still play, but you have to put
Speaker:yourself in an environment where you're hearing that kind of music
Speaker:live, you know, like, I've been lucky enough to sit in
Speaker:the middle of a bunch of bands where I'm listening
Speaker:deeply to everything. So I know that feeling of
Speaker:playing in a big band or playing on stage with a rock band or
Speaker:whatever, and I've mixed a lot of live shows, so a lot of that is
Speaker:just having the image in your mind being
Speaker:in the room while they're playing together. If they are
Speaker:all in the same room and
Speaker:if they're interacting well,
Speaker:like, really listening to what's going on in the room and listening to their
Speaker:sounds and just trying to bring that all
Speaker:together without, like, really messing with stuff, you know,
Speaker:besides, like, maybe getting rid of problems. Yeah, right. But keeping it
Speaker:pretty simple. Yeah. Would you say that maybe
Speaker:a mistake that a lot of people make is trying
Speaker:to validate their presence by doing something instead of just
Speaker:capturing that happens, you know, like, oh, this. Look at this compressor. I've never
Speaker:used this. I'm going to use it. Yeah, totally. And, I mean, sometimes
Speaker:that can be cool. Yeah. You know, it's like. I mean, there really
Speaker:is no rule, like, some
Speaker:records that I've worked on, like, they shouldn't sound like a
Speaker:photorealistic version of the band. Like, the band wants it to have,
Speaker:like, more crunch or power or whatever, and sound
Speaker:more like a punk rock record with horns or something, you know?
Speaker:But usually they'll say, that, but,
Speaker:yeah, on sessions like that, where I'm trying to keep it, like,
Speaker:with how the band sounds and how I've heard them sound. Yeah, I'm,
Speaker:like, less likely to plug in an h 3000
Speaker:and get the
Speaker:chorus echo going. I mean, sometimes I will, because sometimes drummers like, playing with
Speaker:it, but, yeah, I'm not trying to change their
Speaker:sound unless they ask for something like that, in which case
Speaker:I usually will give them something to play with as they're playing.
Speaker:But, I mean, I usually save
Speaker:sessions for trying stuff out. Sometimes I'll just
Speaker:molt a channel and record it
Speaker:flat and then record it with, like, ooh, what's this? Do? You know?
Speaker:And get really saucy, which I think. Is the
Speaker:advantage of trying to work in a studio where you have a console or
Speaker:you have the ability to do that because you could also get creative. Like you
Speaker:said, you could do a kick snare overhead
Speaker:thing through the tape echo and print that to a track. And
Speaker:it exists. You know, they don't need to use it, they don't need to hear
Speaker:it. But, uh, it's. It's an option for creativity
Speaker:later. I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned
Speaker:you do a lot of experimental jazz instrumental stuff,
Speaker:and I would imagine that those sessions not breaking the
Speaker:flow is super important because once those people get into their
Speaker:headspace that, that they want to be in, they don't want to
Speaker:stop, they don't want to have a technical problem. What are some of
Speaker:your preparation tips
Speaker:to not break the creative flow once, once things are
Speaker:happening? Yeah, that's very important. I have some. Some
Speaker:artists I work with. If it's in the studio, they just want me to hit
Speaker:record and not stop.
Speaker:Like, keep it going no matter what. Especially if it's like an all improvised
Speaker:session. Sometimes they'll talk for 1020 minutes between a
Speaker:take, and I'm just ready to go, like. And
Speaker:sometimes I, you know, if I'm like, okay, these guys are gonna talk forever, I
Speaker:will pause for a second. But I also, like, I always, I
Speaker:mostly record in pro tools, and
Speaker:I almost always will set up the playback so it'll take off
Speaker:from wherever the playhead stopped. That was a huge thing. Cause,
Speaker:like, even if pro tools crashes, at least it'll start right at the end point
Speaker:that it crashed and I can just hit record again. Yeah. Cause that will
Speaker:happen seemingly once every session where pro
Speaker:tools would be, like, in the middle of a take,
Speaker:mostly not on my laptop. Strangely, like, it hasn't happened to
Speaker:me on a live recording for four years knocking on
Speaker:wood there, but that's a big
Speaker:thing. And then you have to get the sound that you're gonna go
Speaker:with before they start tracking. Yeah, that's a huge
Speaker:thing. So, prep wise, you want to know for me, if I'm working in
Speaker:a room that I've worked in before, I was like, I pretty much know where
Speaker:everybody's going to go. I want to get there 2 hours before they walk in
Speaker:the door. And even if I don't know exactly what mics I'm going to use,
Speaker:I'm going to have stuff up on stands, lines are going to be run,
Speaker:and this is all me. I usually don't have help, but that way they can
Speaker:get in there and get their instruments tuned and I'm changing
Speaker:things while they're setting up instead of all of us setting
Speaker:up at the same time and being like, oh, sorry, guys. You know,
Speaker:like, like, I just noticed the snare mic is going,
Speaker:but you just let it roll, you know, and like, I
Speaker:try not to on many of those sessions. Sometimes I'll be like,
Speaker:no, this is like that. Or give them. I will
Speaker:only really speak up if there's something that is like, holding them
Speaker:back or they have a question. It's like, well, what about if we do this?
Speaker:Or like, was that cool? And maybe I'll pipe. Pipe in, but I usually just
Speaker:let them go. Yeah. Like, those are some of my favorite sessions because it's really
Speaker:all about the first two, 3 hours of me being there. And after that,
Speaker:it's all about them. Like, getting the lighting right, you know, if you can.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah. Like having snacks around
Speaker:all of those things. Like a huge, huge proponent of keeping your blood sugar
Speaker:at a decent level. Huge proponent of that. Not too high. Not too
Speaker:low. Yes. Too many people get, like the
Speaker:get hangry or start to lose their mind when they haven't
Speaker:had enough food. But, you know, it's pretty simple. I usually
Speaker:know all the musicians for the most part, too. So it's like, we hang a
Speaker:little bit, there's lots of breaks, but a lot of those records get made,
Speaker:the vast majority in like six, 7 hours. Yeah,
Speaker:that's cool. They just come in and lay it down. I make roughs of
Speaker:everything, and I'm not trying to change things from song to song,
Speaker:you know, I'm not like, okay, here comes a slap on the delay. You know,
Speaker:like, it's just keeping it really
Speaker:simple and then also making sure you're set up in a
Speaker:way to where pro tools is less prone to crash
Speaker:and like, you know, having, like, a hard drive that, you know, is
Speaker:fast and has plenty of room on it and not
Speaker:using any plugins while you're tracking too, for that kind of stuff.
Speaker:If I'm just like, if I'm literally rolling for six straight hours,
Speaker:nothing can mess with it. With it if at all possible. Cause it happens.
Speaker:I did a record recently where they did, like, two days,
Speaker:and they were basically doing one
Speaker:take of each composition that they had.
Speaker:There's a lot of material. And in one of the takes, pro tools was like,
Speaker:boop. And I started going again. And in
Speaker:this case, I was like, I can't interrupt them. Cause, like, they're on fire right
Speaker:now. Yeah, like they're killing. And I
Speaker:can't believe I just said that. All the jazz people say that way too much
Speaker:killing. It's so violent. But at the end
Speaker:of that take, I said, guys, I had a little dropout, but
Speaker:I noted it, and then as soon as it happened, I
Speaker:was listening for, like, how can I work? How can I edit this back
Speaker:together in a way that makes sense? We lost about, like,
Speaker:8 seconds of music,
Speaker:and then the artist was like, hey, thanks for telling me. I'm glad you let
Speaker:us keep going. You know, you gotta be ready for somebody
Speaker:to be mad at you, too, even if it's not your fault. Yeah, you know,
Speaker:but you gotta admit it, totally. It's like, hey, guys, this happened. I'm
Speaker:really sorry. Do you want to redo the tune? Do you want me to try
Speaker:to figure out an edit? And the artist was like, very clear. He's like, oh,
Speaker:he's like, that's disappointing, but let's work on it right now. Just try to keep
Speaker:them in the flow, even though everybody else had to take a break for, like,
Speaker:ten minutes while I did a crazy edit. But, yeah,
Speaker:just keep things really simple for them and stay out of the way.
Speaker:Yeah. Do you find that you record. Do you ever
Speaker:record, like, just empty tracks in case you need to add something
Speaker:midway? You know, they just have. Cause, you know, once pro tools is rolling, you
Speaker:can't add a track. So do you ever find yourself going that far in
Speaker:prep? That is one of the most frustrating things about
Speaker:daws is like, I wish I could record arm a track while we're
Speaker:rolling. Yeah. Like on a tape machine. Yeah, that would be amazing. Cause
Speaker:I usually do have open tracks. I usually will have,
Speaker:like, one or maybe two
Speaker:in case I need to quick patch something in the middle of a take. Yeah,
Speaker:yeah. And then I just. If I. If I didn't use it. I just delete
Speaker:that audio file after the take. Yeah. You know, if it's just
Speaker:blank. So. Yeah, stuff like that. Backups. When I do live
Speaker:stuff, I have to have a redundant recorder
Speaker:multitrack or stereo multitrack. I used to do just
Speaker:stereo, but there was a problem with, like, I used to use a zoom h
Speaker:six just for the stereo. But for some reason it would
Speaker:always stretch the time somehow. I think the clocks in those things are all
Speaker:messed up, but, like, it would never line up. Like it would stretch
Speaker:as like the recording went on. Oh, weird. Even if same
Speaker:bit in sample rate. But then I got this. I
Speaker:started using this little guy, this sound devices mixpre
Speaker:as like my backup because I can get ten channels going on
Speaker:that. And for like a lot of the, like live orchestral stuff
Speaker:I'm doing, I'm not going over eight channels.
Speaker:So one of my interfaces has analog outs.
Speaker:And so I've at least got like those two recorders going. Okay. And it's
Speaker:going digitally into that thing. But that's another big thing is having a
Speaker:backup. And sometimes in sessions I will run.
Speaker:I saw this on. Maybe it was that Lady Gaga documentary from a few years
Speaker:ago. Okay. That Mark Ronson always had a little
Speaker:zoom recorder, like a dictation one
Speaker:first of all in the room for, like, ideas. I think it was
Speaker:constantly rolling. And then they also had something just recording
Speaker:a two track of all the sound coming through everything
Speaker:all at once. Yeah. It was like a separate stereo mix that was just a
Speaker:backup of just like, oh, pro tool stop. But we still have the audio from
Speaker:this, so we can get something from it. So I used to do that a
Speaker:lot. Yeah. And I probably should get back into it a little bit.
Speaker:But I. Especially in those. Those highly creative sessions that it was a
Speaker:couple, couple months ago, I had Dana Nielsen on, and you and I were
Speaker:talking about him. Cause you're drinking out of your ember. Because we were talking about
Speaker:the ember a lot. But everything he's ever done with Rick Rubin, there's always a
Speaker:second stereo rig with all the talkbacks piping in there. So it's like if
Speaker:somebody says something plus the mix off the board, like it's all getting
Speaker:captured somewhere. Like, worst case you can find it. You
Speaker:know, it's a lot to archive, but for stuff like that
Speaker:and how much money is being spent at those sessions
Speaker:and time. And it's hard to get a lot of those people
Speaker:together all at the same time. Yeah. And just to remember the creative process,
Speaker:the example that he used is he was in a session, and the singer had
Speaker:an idea between takes, and the guitar player was
Speaker:playing. And then when they went to do it, the idea wasn't the same. It
Speaker:just didn't feel the same. So they went back and they listened to it,
Speaker:and the guitar player was reharming under it. He wasn't playing the
Speaker:same thing. And all of a sudden, it was like, oh, shit. That's what it
Speaker:was. The guitar player was playing something different. So it's crazy, man. The things
Speaker:you encounter in the studio. It'S hard to pay attention to everything
Speaker:all at once. It is kind of our job, but it's
Speaker:hard to do it with our brains. So I wanted to ask you
Speaker:the question that every up and coming engineer
Speaker:wants to ask anybody that works. Is there anything
Speaker:you do that you think keeps you busy? Is
Speaker:there anything you can tell somebody that just, like, doesn't understand why they're not working
Speaker:as much as they want to work? I mean, I've been doing this now. I
Speaker:got a late start. To be honest, I didn't really start doing this till I
Speaker:was almost 30. You know, like, I messed around a little bit, but
Speaker:I never tried to, like, really get in it. In it until around
Speaker:then. Yeah. And for me, I
Speaker:already knew hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of musicians and had, like, done a lot
Speaker:of touring, so I might have, like, a kind of a different viewpoint. And I
Speaker:also live in a. One of the, like, Chicago's an incredible
Speaker:city for music and a wide variety. There's so much happening here that
Speaker:nobody ever talks about. It feels like the people that know
Speaker:me and tend to call me know that
Speaker:I'm very, very, very into quality
Speaker:and, like, into doing a good job and, like, as few compromises
Speaker:as possible. And hopefully that's my reputation
Speaker:amongst other people. And then I think I've
Speaker:been doing it long enough to where,
Speaker:you know, it's pretty much word of mouth for me, so it just takes
Speaker:time. Like, I'm a nice guy. I'm not, like, a mean.
Speaker:A mean person. That's a huge thing. That is true. It is true. A lot
Speaker:of people are just like. Like, I got this idea for your band, and, like,
Speaker:it's gonna rule. And it's like, okay, that could be great. But
Speaker:I. It's a lot of it is just, like, how you deal with people
Speaker:and your skills. Obviously, if you're. If you're messing stuff
Speaker:up all the time and making things hard for people, like, showing up
Speaker:late, having bad communication
Speaker:about money and about time and about
Speaker:expectations and not having conversations that need to
Speaker:be had initially, talking about all the details
Speaker:and all the heavy stuff. I think that's the way
Speaker:a lot of people get burned that way, but they don't have the conversations of,
Speaker:like, this is how much this is going to cost. I need you to pay
Speaker:me at this time of the process, stuff like
Speaker:that. But even if you're not there yet,
Speaker:I think at this point I know so many people that somebody's
Speaker:probably going to give me a call. Yeah. And if you just move somewhere,
Speaker:that's going to take some time. So, I mean, that's what I would really recommend
Speaker:is just get to know as many people without expecting
Speaker:them to hire you. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Speaker:Having no or very low expectations for
Speaker:others like, to want to work with
Speaker:you, not just assuming that. Why aren't they working with
Speaker:me? That's unhealthy and it will, like, lead you to
Speaker:disappointment. And then when people do ask you to help them,
Speaker:that's, you know, that's like a major plus and super awesome.
Speaker:Yeah. And just do as many things as you can. I still do live sound.
Speaker:Yeah. You know, I do some podcast editing for, like, for one
Speaker:organization that, like, really, it keeps me from having
Speaker:to do stuff I don't want to do and.
Speaker:And allows me to charge what I charge. There's
Speaker:no shame in that. And if you really. I mean, this is
Speaker:maybe the worst time to, like, try to become a professional
Speaker:audio engineer in, in the 130 years of
Speaker:recorded music. Right. Might be true. We don't have to go into that,
Speaker:but it's a deep theory I have. But just work hard, be a
Speaker:nice person, and just try to do your
Speaker:best work. Yeah, I don't know. I
Speaker:resonate with all that. And I'm not going to let you not talk about your
Speaker:deep theory, by the way. We're going to come back to that. I do think
Speaker:that word of mouth is the best, but also
Speaker:the hardest way, because when you get jobs through word of mouth,
Speaker:they're basically done deals. You know, somebody's like, nick
Speaker:is amazing. You need to call Nick for your next record.
Speaker:90%, that gig's yours. Right. But you need to do enough
Speaker:gigs and meet enough people for that to happen. And you
Speaker:have to do great work for hundreds of people because let's be honest,
Speaker:like, as much as we think every gig we do, that person's going to recommend
Speaker:us. I mean, I would say 5% of the people I work
Speaker:with will recommend you to somebody else like it. The
Speaker:world does function as a very, like, top of mind, you know, it's like, if
Speaker:you're not top of mind at somebody, with somebody, when they're having
Speaker:coffee with their friend, they are not gonna spit your name out. You know?
Speaker:I also go out to a lot of shows. Yeah, you gotta be around.
Speaker:I needed to be better at that. Being around. Like, I like to sit in
Speaker:my backyard. It's hard. I mean, I'm 46.
Speaker:I don't wanna be out five nights a week. I mean, there's so much cool
Speaker:stuff I do wanna see, and much of my social life is
Speaker:around music, and it's a major part of it, but it can be
Speaker:exhausting. But if you're in your twenties, yeah, go out. Be out there.
Speaker:Like, don't go broke going out,
Speaker:but get out there and meet people and have fun while you
Speaker:can. It's like, I mean, I'm single. I have very few
Speaker:responsibilities to other people, so I'm in a pretty particular position.
Speaker:But, yeah, you gotta get out there and meet those people. Make music friends.
Speaker:You know, it's not like you said, it's not about getting work from every person
Speaker:you meet. It might just be that you're friends with this bass player,
Speaker:they're friends with that drummer, and then that drummer tells a singer songwriter that you
Speaker:should work with them. It's like, it's not gonna happen the way you think it's
Speaker:gonna happen. So, yeah, you can't force it. And you can't, like I said again,
Speaker:like, expectations are like the quickest road to disappointment.
Speaker:And, you know, if you. And there's no shame in
Speaker:doing other work if, you know, on your way,
Speaker:like, you don't have to be 100%. I only
Speaker:do music engineering and stuff like that. This is pretty rare. Yeah,
Speaker:these days it's hard. It's hard if you don't have, like, external money
Speaker:coming at you. So. Okay, so now you've got to give us your dark
Speaker:theories about whatever it is, the end of the audio industry, or why it's a
Speaker:bad time to become a recording engineer. I gotta hear it. I'm curious. Okay, well,
Speaker:the main thing, I think, and this all comes from
Speaker:a few, actually, a couple of business books I read a few years
Speaker:ago, if we think back to the
Speaker:seventies or even the eighties.
Speaker:So there was a barrier to entry,
Speaker:right. You had to have a recorder, which back in the
Speaker:seventies would have been a tape machine. How are you going to get sounded? Recorder?
Speaker:You had to have a mixer. You had to have all this infrastructure to make
Speaker:a record, right. And then getting,
Speaker:like, self pressing your records was like something that was very rare.
Speaker:And the record labels were pretty picky,
Speaker:you know, about what they were putting out. Right. And, like, in general,
Speaker:what they put out would at least sell a little bit of actual
Speaker:material. All right, so, like, now the main problem
Speaker:is the artists aren't making any money. Yeah, the vast majority,
Speaker:but there's, you know,
Speaker:500 times the amount of recordings coming out now, which
Speaker:we won't even say anything about that. That's not neither good or bad in my
Speaker:estimation, really, but. So the artists aren't getting paid.
Speaker:And to my mind, there's
Speaker:no barrier to entry to be able to do this anymore. I mean, I just
Speaker:made a cool recording on my phone three days ago
Speaker:using logic for the iPhone, you know, like, or garage man,
Speaker:whatever. Yeah, you can do all kinds of cool stuff, and so there's no barriers
Speaker:to entry anymore. So everybody can do it. The problem
Speaker:is, because everybody can do it, a lot of
Speaker:people will do it for nothing or for very, very,
Speaker:very cheap, you know, and this happens to everybody
Speaker:that does this. But there are people who, like, they see it as, and
Speaker:this isn't a bad thing. They see recording people
Speaker:at a very low price as something is like
Speaker:a service of theirs that they're giving to the music. They're like, I love this.
Speaker:You guys, like, don't make a lot of money doing what you're doing. I love
Speaker:to record, you guys. I'll do it for this insanely low price, which
Speaker:is great as an idea, but then everything else goes down.
Speaker:So everybody's expectations go down. The musicians aren't getting paid
Speaker:and everybody's flooded. And there's terrible
Speaker:advice. There's lots of audio work,
Speaker:I guess I would say there's tons of audio work, but in
Speaker:terms of strictly being a music engineer, be it
Speaker:recording or mixing a, the tools are great
Speaker:and wonderful, but in terms of making a long living
Speaker:just doing that, it's really, really hard,
Speaker:and it has been in the past, but it's hard
Speaker:to make it through a sea of all of the thousands and
Speaker:thousands and thousands of engineers that are being, coming out of
Speaker:schools, you know, with now
Speaker:pretty decent. Training and using the same tools that other people are
Speaker:using. Oh, exactly. Like you said, the barrier to entry for tools is
Speaker:non existent at this point. Yeah, I mean, people complain about pro tools being
Speaker:what, six, $700 for a perpetual license, but that's not
Speaker:that much. Yeah, yeah. If you're using it every day and you're working every
Speaker:day. Yeah, I agree with
Speaker:you. It is. I think about, like.
Speaker:I don't know. I have a couple thoughts. One, I think
Speaker:about this episode I did that
Speaker:mastering is dead. I don't know if you saw that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay,
Speaker:so the point of that video, and if you're watching this interview and you
Speaker:didn't make it to the end of mastering is dead, by the way, I can
Speaker:tell by your comments, it's about the value that a human brings
Speaker:to the process. And, you know, it's Mike brawl and for dropping that in the
Speaker:last 20 seconds of an eight minute video. But I think
Speaker:that the more technology makes this
Speaker:job attainable to anybody, I think that's
Speaker:a awesome. Right, because you're inspiring more people to be creative.
Speaker:But, yeah, it's watering down and making it more difficult
Speaker:for people to make the living that they were making ten years ago
Speaker:and going to make it even harder ten years moving forward.
Speaker:But I think that's why people really need to hone in on the value that
Speaker:they bring. You're busy because of the things that you bring
Speaker:outside of pressing record, the preparation that you do, the
Speaker:way you interact with bands, the way you respect
Speaker:that when they're in the creative zone, they need to stay there. And you'll do
Speaker:everything you can to make sure that that's the way it is. That's why you're
Speaker:gonna get hired. Not because you know how to mic a
Speaker:saxophone. Although ten years from now, you might be one of the last people that
Speaker:knows how to mic a saxophone. Oh, this old thing?
Speaker:Who knows how to play this? But. So there's that thought. But then I
Speaker:also. I think that the audio
Speaker:industry is preying on this. I mean, look at, like,
Speaker:the Behringer, $300.33, 60 nine. I mean, whatever. I
Speaker:haven't heard it. I'm not going to judge it. I guarantee you it's built like
Speaker:a piece of shit. Maybe it sounds great. It's only going to work for a
Speaker:year. Like, at this point, whenever I buy something on Amazon, I just assume it's
Speaker:going to break in six months. But people know that. Let's take the
Speaker:things. The computer is, like,
Speaker:democratized everything, right? So what's left is the gear. Okay, so how
Speaker:do we. And no shade to these companies, but, like, how do we make the
Speaker:Neve 1073 cheaper? Well, Behringer just did one. Warm audio has
Speaker:been doing one for a long time. Well, let's take the things that. The last
Speaker:things that these people can't afford and let's put it in their price
Speaker:range. And like I said, I haven't used a lot of this stuff, so I'm
Speaker:not directly knocking it, but I see the industry prey on the
Speaker:fact that everything is getting cheaper,
Speaker:and it's. And it bugs me a little bit. When you look around at it,
Speaker:you're like, I don't know. We're fueling the fire, I guess. You know what I
Speaker:mean? Yeah. And again, I'm like. I'm not, like, totally dark on it.
Speaker:I'm just saying it's hard. It's hard. It's hard. Like, I love
Speaker:what I do, and I love what other people do. I love. You know, I
Speaker:have a lot of friends that are engineers, and we hang out and, like,
Speaker:it's great, you know? And I love nerding out with other people. And
Speaker:it's not really about that. It's just really hard for people to make a living.
Speaker:And that's why I think, like, keeping your expectations. I mean, you can go for
Speaker:it if you want to go for it. Go for it. Yeah, but you gotta
Speaker:keep that in mind. It's like. So I was doing some tape dumps
Speaker:for numero group one time, and I got this one inch 16
Speaker:track from Minneapolis, and it
Speaker:actually had a brochure for the studio. It was recorded in, in,
Speaker:like, 78, like, the year after I was
Speaker:born. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, look at this. Oh, they have
Speaker:a neo. At the time, I had a neotec. They're like, oh, they have a
Speaker:neotec. They got this tape machine. They had pretty much the same setup I
Speaker:did at my studio at the time, back when I had, like, a full on
Speaker:studio, and I was like, this is incredible. I was like, looked at the
Speaker:rates. 1978, $350 a day.
Speaker:Okay. That's what I was charging in
Speaker:2015 or no, 2018.
Speaker:Except that $350 in 1978 is
Speaker:$1,200 today. Wow. And, like,
Speaker:and I showed this to one of the artists I was working with. He's like,
Speaker:oh, man. I was like, yeah, that's, like,
Speaker:true for all of us. It's like, you know, live sound still pays $150
Speaker:or whatever. Like, yeah, it's a.
Speaker:You know, it's. It's super. It's super challenging.
Speaker:Yeah, we could go on. We could go on forever, and. But the main thing
Speaker:is that artists need to get paid. Exactly. You know, like,
Speaker:what they do do, you know, like, if at all possible.
Speaker:The artists need to get paid. That that's what it comes down. Like, Spotify is
Speaker:really on everybody's shit list right now, but that's who pays. Us, is the artist.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly. Eventually, they won't. People won't want
Speaker:to pay for engineering, and they won't want to pay for mastering because they're not
Speaker:making enough money. And they're pretty good at it. They're pretty good at recording and
Speaker:mixing their own record because they have great tools and great access to knowledge.
Speaker:So why. Right. And that's where it comes back to that x factor of,
Speaker:like, personality and value outside of technical skills.
Speaker:Anyway, I could rant on that for a while. Let's let the
Speaker:sun back up into this.
Speaker:Luckily, we're deep in the show, so anybody that's, like, this far, they're down, they're
Speaker:with us. This isn't at the beginning. They're like, man, these guys are crazy.
Speaker:They're in their little basement bunkers like me. Like, yeah, that's right, guys. That's right.
Speaker:Okay, so you've listened to the show. You know, I've got two questions that I
Speaker:close everything out with, so I'll hit you with the first one. Was there ever
Speaker:a time in your career that you chose to redefine what success meant to you?
Speaker:Yeah, I think that I hadn't thought about that
Speaker:for a while, but when I looked back, especially, like, you
Speaker:know, the last 15 years, when I was doing this,
Speaker:when I started doing this, success was just in the
Speaker:beginning getting somebody to pay me to do it. Yeah, you
Speaker:know, that was one thing, but now,
Speaker:you know, and, you know, there was a period in my life where I was
Speaker:just like, oh, I want to do these big records and do all this.
Speaker:And I was like, I don't really work in that world. I don't know those
Speaker:people. But now I feel like
Speaker:I think about that kind of every week
Speaker:about what success is for me. And I think for. I like
Speaker:to. There are large successes that you can have
Speaker:where it's like a record comes out that you worked on and it gets
Speaker:amazing reviews, and the artist starts
Speaker:touring more than they ever have, which I
Speaker:kind of see is success, that we made
Speaker:that happen, and it's not just all about me. Right. But really,
Speaker:like, I'm deep in a bunch of mixing right now. And,
Speaker:like, day to day success is even in the studio, I
Speaker:guess, is getting that feeling, you know, when somebody's, like, singing
Speaker:and the take is just this beautiful thing and you get the thing
Speaker:here in the back of the neck and, like, around the edge of
Speaker:tears. Yeah. Like, if I can get that out of
Speaker:somebody and then get that recorded
Speaker:and then feel it again while I'm mixing
Speaker:and then have someone else feel that when it comes out of the
Speaker:speakers. Like, that's success to me. You know,
Speaker:like, if somebody's feeling something from listening to the music and not to
Speaker:be like, oh, this is really nice. Oh, what did he play over this chord?
Speaker:You know, like, that doesn't matter to me at all
Speaker:or not at all, but you know what I'm saying?
Speaker:I look at it as smaller little things, as a
Speaker:chain of, how can we just keep building up these little
Speaker:successes? That seems like a good life to me.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree. I agree. And really, it's like the idea of
Speaker:having impact in the streaming world. So
Speaker:many people listen passively, you know, like, having 10 million streams doesn't
Speaker:mean that like, 10 million people cried to that. Yeah. You know what I
Speaker:mean? Not that everything has to. You know, not that everybody has to cry to
Speaker:everything, but you know what I mean? Yeah. You get that feeling. It's like,
Speaker:oh, man. Like, that really hit me. Like, yeah, like this. There's a
Speaker:Lucy, Lucy Dacus song that she put out a
Speaker:couple years ago, and I can't listen to it around people because I will
Speaker:just break down. I'm like, man, how did you. It's like, you wrote such
Speaker:an amazing song. Gets you every time. Yeah, every time.
Speaker:Like, thinking about it right now, I'm gonna have to get a. Grab a tissue.
Speaker:In a second. We'll edit around the tears. No, no,
Speaker:it'll be like the view or something. I don't know, Barbara Walters
Speaker:style. I love that
Speaker:definition, that goal. I mean. Cause it's really, I think the
Speaker:core of why so many people get into this is to, you know,
Speaker:pass that feeling along that you had when you were, like, listening to music on
Speaker:your Walkman or whatever when you were a kid. Like, you just want, like, one
Speaker:other kid to have that thing to something that you helped put in the world.
Speaker:Like, somebody to be like. Yeah. You know, like,
Speaker:exactly. I don't know.
Speaker:Is somebody to be excited about it, because I think, yeah, that's the whole thing.
Speaker:Exciting. A bunch of air, man, if it comes through the air and makes somebody
Speaker:excited inside, that's amazing, you know? So that's kind of like my, those are my
Speaker:success goals. My small day to days. I love it. I love it.
Speaker:And so, basically, you know, carry on to that question is, what is your current
Speaker:biggest goal, other than to make people cry? And what is the next smallest step
Speaker:you're going to take to go towards. It on today's cry list. Who are we
Speaker:going to make cry today? So this just got a little
Speaker:flipped on its head because I mentioned before we started
Speaker:recording that I'm going to have to move soon. I've been here for 14 years,
Speaker:living here for 14 years. And during the pandemic, I really got
Speaker:this decked out and set up. Even though it looks a little
Speaker:crazy, it's super functional for me.
Speaker:So right now, my next biggest goal is to
Speaker:find a way to work a place in a way to work
Speaker:where I'm not paying separate rent and that'll come
Speaker:down the road. I'm not super, super worried about it. But prior to
Speaker:that, to basically, like, this emergency thinking, my
Speaker:biggest goal, I think,
Speaker:was to kind of, like, travel around and work with, do record
Speaker:people in different locations from different cities and stuff like that. I work
Speaker:with a lot of mostly Chicago artists, but I also have friends all over the
Speaker:country, and every once in a while, I get to go do stuff in
Speaker:their towns. And I kind of want to do that a lot more because I
Speaker:love seeing my friends and I
Speaker:like going to different places and different studios and meeting new
Speaker:people. So once I figure out this whole nebulous
Speaker:where my stuff is going to go, that's something I've
Speaker:really been trying to work on the last couple of years, is just like, oh,
Speaker:I'm on a road trip. Oh, there's a studio here. I want to go check
Speaker:it out. Just meet people from all over the country
Speaker:and if possible, try to record in those places. That's where you were, just
Speaker:out here in LA doing that, and we got together. Yeah. So that's great. I
Speaker:love it. Yeah. Nick, please tell people where
Speaker:they can find you on the Internet or whatever you want to share. Oh, yeah.
Speaker:So I have a website. It's
Speaker:www.nickbrosty.com. and the
Speaker:last name is? It is Brosty. It's like frosty
Speaker:is what? But with a b. But b r o s t e is the
Speaker:last name. Most people say broast. So that's my website.
Speaker:And then you can find me on Instagram. I do have a Facebook
Speaker:account. Please don't try to friend me on that. I'm trying to keep it
Speaker:mostly to just friends now, but Instagram is the preferred
Speaker:zone, and I'm just there.
Speaker:Amazing. Awesome. Dude, this is fun. We'll have to do this again. I could
Speaker:keep going, but, you know. Yeah, yeah. We've all got. We've all got things we
Speaker:got to do. Exactly. Hit me up next time you're out here. Yes, I
Speaker:will. Hopefully this summer. One of these days I want to make it back to
Speaker:Chicago, so I enjoyed that city when I was there last. So it's a
Speaker:good town. And people from LA seem to be moving here, which is starting to
Speaker:scare me a little. Keep us out. Well, they usually go
Speaker:the other way. Amazing. Awesome, dude. Well, thank you
Speaker:so much. Yeah, man, thank you. It's great to talk to you. That's it for
Speaker:this week's episode of Progressions. Thank you so much for watching listening.
Speaker:Be sure to check out all the links and resources mentioned in the episode down
Speaker:below, in the video description or in your podcast show
Speaker:notes. If you're listening to this as an audio podcast, please leave a review
Speaker:on Apple or Spotify. It helps the show so much. And if you're watching on
Speaker:YouTube, feel free to drop any thoughts or questions about the episode down below.
Speaker:Let's keep the conversation going for those of you watching, you'll be getting a
Speaker:link to another episode you might enjoy popping up somewhere right about now. And
Speaker:for those of you listening, check out the YouTube. Hit that subscribe
Speaker:button if you haven't already, and I will see you all next time.
