Capturing Hit Record Moments: Vocal Production Tips with Dana Nielsen
Dana Nielsen is a Grammy nominated recording engineer, mixer, and producer who's worked with artists such as The Red Hot Chili Peppers, SZA, Bob Dylan, Adele, and Post Malone.
In this episode, you'll learn about:
- Vocal Production Techniques
- The Importance of Headphone Mixes
- The Art of Editing Musically
- Melodyne Vocal Tuning Tips
- Working with Rick Rubin
- Understanding Production is about the People, Not the Tools
- Running a 2nd Record Rig at All Times
- Translating Your Taste to Your Production Choices
Connect with Dana Nielsen
🌐 Website: https://www.dananielsen.com/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danafrio/
🎵TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@danaproducer
🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheDanaNielsen
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Credits:
Guest: Dana Nielsen
Host: Travis Ference
Editor: Stephen Boyd
Theme Music: inter.ference
Transcript
We have nothing else than our muse and our creative
Speaker:ideas of what this thing is supposed to sound like. You know, which of
Speaker:these takes sounds like a record? That's producer, engineer and mixer Dana
Speaker:Nielsen. Dana's studio experience has put him in the room with some of the top
Speaker:artists in pretty much any genre you can imagine, talking about everybody from Adele and
Speaker:Bob Dylan to SZA in the Red Hot Chili Peppers. In this episode, we get
Speaker:into Dana's vocal production and editing philosophy. But if they to
Speaker:do their thing and overall it's up
Speaker:here, I'm just going to try to keep that shape, but bring it here.
Speaker:And if there's an issue, I'm just. Going to how to set up a session
Speaker:for success every time by dialing in a great headphone mix. When they put
Speaker:the headphones on, their ideal response is like, sounds
Speaker:great, I'm good. Let's go. That's like the goal.
Speaker:Why you should always be in record. Someone had a guitar in the room
Speaker:and they were playing a different chord. That's what made it so awesome.
Speaker:So the secret wasn't the singing, but it was something else going
Speaker:on and. How your musical influences combine to give you your unique
Speaker:sound and taste as a producer. There's probably records that were
Speaker:formidable in your own upbringing and life or current life
Speaker:that you think really move you, and those become sort
Speaker:of the template or the blueprint within
Speaker:your mind's ear. As a producer, this one's a great hang. Lots of
Speaker:engineering tricks for everything from vocals to live bands, as well as Dana's takeaways from
Speaker:working with the legendary Rick Rubin and how that approach to production has shaped
Speaker:his own work. So stick around. For my interview with Dana Nielsen.
Speaker:I really wanted to talk to you about is vocal production.
Speaker:I've done potentially thousands of vocal sessions,
Speaker:some where there's a dedicated vocal producer, some where there's not.
Speaker:So I've seen the value that this can bring, but a lot of people have
Speaker:never had a chance to experience it. Why have a specific
Speaker:producer just for vocals? And what does that bring to a session,
Speaker:especially if you've got a great singer already?
Speaker:Well, let's see. I guess there's two parts to that
Speaker:answer. One is, I've never been that specific vocal
Speaker:producer role myself. I think I'm more
Speaker:a producer who loves working with vocalists.
Speaker:And if somebody were to ask me to like, hey,
Speaker:we got this awesome gig going on and it's being produced by
Speaker:so and so and so and so. And we want you to be the vocal
Speaker:producer for these vocal sessions, I'd be like, oh, yeah, cool, let's
Speaker:talk. But it's not a specific
Speaker:job that I get asked for apart from what is
Speaker:a regular, all encompassing production project.
Speaker:Production. Yeah. But the second part, I guess, which I think,
Speaker:if I can remember, was just about
Speaker:working with vocalists and the
Speaker:tools and tasks and the job that's
Speaker:there. Yeah, I love that stuff. And I think it
Speaker:comes from being a singer. And my wife is
Speaker:also a very accomplished singer. She loves
Speaker:to remind people that in high school, she was choir
Speaker:president and I was choir vice president,
Speaker:and we went to the same high school. Were you guys
Speaker:together then? Yes. Well, senior year. Yeah.
Speaker:Epic. Okay. That's awesome. Anyway, I love it. And
Speaker:I will say I'm not in a session
Speaker:trying ever to sing
Speaker:too well or do anything like that, but those
Speaker:skills are super helpful to be able to,
Speaker:when needed, as a sort of last resort, to help
Speaker:a singer find a harmony line that works and
Speaker:all these things. As a
Speaker:producer, I'm always trying to get
Speaker:the artist to find their own way and offer
Speaker:suggestions to lead them towards something. So
Speaker:that's why I say, as a last resort, I don't like to just get on
Speaker:the talk back and be like, okay, now sing this. Okay, now sing this.
Speaker:I think it'd be awesome in this part of the chorus if it had a
Speaker:harmony or something. Let's try some harmony stuff there. Oh, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, let's
Speaker:try that. And then I'm always recording several passes, like,
Speaker:oh, the ending, man. What you did there at the end of that was
Speaker:perfect. What else can you figure out for the beginning? In my mind all
Speaker:along, I know exactly what I would sing, but I want them to find
Speaker:it in part because it's them and it's their record and
Speaker:it's their expression. And also,
Speaker:they come up with stuff that isn't the thing that I have in my
Speaker:mind. That can be incredible and would never
Speaker:have heard that if it was just sort of a, here, do
Speaker:this. So it's really fun working
Speaker:with singers, and I'll say the same thing really applies
Speaker:to working with any musician searching for the gold,
Speaker:and the gold is always coming from them. And if
Speaker:you're doing your job right and creating a space, both physical
Speaker:and emotional, for them to feel free
Speaker:to try a lot of different things and
Speaker:feel okay about missing things or messing up,
Speaker:then it really becomes a job
Speaker:of sort of keeping track of and harvesting the best
Speaker:of those little nuggets that they've delivered. Yeah, it's a lot
Speaker:of fun. Yeah, no, it's great. I find. I'm sure you've been in this situation.
Speaker:You may be in a session with no producer. Might be a vocalist
Speaker:singing, working on a top line, or just replacing something,
Speaker:cutting just a vocal. Sometimes the engineer becomes, like, a de facto vocal
Speaker:producer because there's maybe only you and the singer in the room. And then
Speaker:you get put in that situation where the singer is like, was that good? And
Speaker:you were like, what shit. I was looking at the compressor. I wasn't really paying
Speaker:attention. And then you remember
Speaker:you're like, I need to maybe help this person through,
Speaker:but I can't sing. And I think the fact that you can sing
Speaker:every vocal producer that I've seen or engineer, really
Speaker:anybody that can sing who can jump in and kind of help somebody,
Speaker:I think brings so much value in today's world, because
Speaker:not everybody can sing. It's like the most difficult instrument to
Speaker:control. Right? I don't know. What do you mean
Speaker:exactly? Do you ever find yourself kind of stepping into that de facto
Speaker:role of, like, let's do one more take, maybe a little bit like this, or,
Speaker:like, giving any breath support suggestions all the time?
Speaker:Because those are the things that I think a singer brings to the table, is
Speaker:they can talk singer to the singer. You know what I mean? I think that
Speaker:that part of it has really helped me throughout
Speaker:my whole time doing this. Really
Speaker:get calls back or become more
Speaker:helpful or valuable to, whether it's to the
Speaker:artist directly or to the producer, or
Speaker:certainly when starting out to other engineers, as
Speaker:even an editor who I did years and years of
Speaker:work editing before I was ever talking directly
Speaker:to the artist or anything like that, because
Speaker:of that musical background and how it informs the
Speaker:choices, putting together comps of vocals or drum
Speaker:performances or full rhythm section performances and
Speaker:understanding. And there's never one right answer to any of this stuff.
Speaker:But being comfortable using your own
Speaker:intuition and your own muse and
Speaker:fandom and enjoyment of the music that's being recorded
Speaker:to lead you to certain decisions and
Speaker:being confident to present them as best they can be to
Speaker:whoever's next in the chain, whether it's an engineer or
Speaker:producer or artist. And I think that having a musical background has really,
Speaker:really helped with that. And as far as offering guidance
Speaker:for breath and phrasing and
Speaker:notes and harmonies, absolutely all that
Speaker:stuff. Like I say,
Speaker:I always have the
Speaker:melody or harmony or something in mind that I think will work just in
Speaker:my back pocket if needed. The other stuff, the more technical
Speaker:stuff, I'm much more ready to share, because it
Speaker:doesn't impose any type of musical
Speaker:melodic information to say for sure. I do this all the
Speaker:time. On the last couple of takes, you've got your breath
Speaker:right before the punchline of the chorus, and I've heard you do it
Speaker:previously where you made it in one breath, and it's so much more
Speaker:impactful that way. And those are things that I
Speaker:always love to do as well in honor of the artist. And their
Speaker:process is to play them back or reference
Speaker:things that they've already done that are awesome. Yes. And
Speaker:to let them be their own guide toward what's
Speaker:working. So, yeah, those types of things. I'll jump right in about
Speaker:the phrasing you did on that first pass was just killer. Let me play it
Speaker:back for you real quick, and then we're going to do a couple more. Just
Speaker:try to do that with the same energy.
Speaker:Now you're singing it louder and more vibrant, so bring the energy that you
Speaker:have now on take twelve, but use this
Speaker:awesome phrasing you did instinctually the very first time we did it, which
Speaker:was perfect then. They're kind of learning from themselves, and
Speaker:I'm just kind of keeping track of everything and
Speaker:referencing stuff that's already worked really well. Yeah. It's
Speaker:funny listening to you say that. I think know how many times
Speaker:I've done similar things, but anybody listening should go back and just pay attention
Speaker:to the way that Dana phrased all of that. Because what I heard
Speaker:was you were giving somebody notes without it sounding like
Speaker:notes. And I think that's super important when you're trying to figure out your role
Speaker:in a room. Like, playing an example is such a good move. And
Speaker:I've seen people do that because even though you could sing that phrasing to them,
Speaker:that's like, a little bit more of an aggressive approach. It is. And you're
Speaker:like, there's something about this pre chorus that's cool. You know what it is,
Speaker:and they just need to hear it so you don't have to lay it out
Speaker:there like that. So everybody should take note of the politics
Speaker:behind the words that you chose when you're describing that, which is great. Yeah.
Speaker:I like the idea of musical editing that you just kind of touched on, because
Speaker:I've done a lot of editing. You've worked on a lot of records that are
Speaker:very organic, where I would imagine the players are probably very sensitive to
Speaker:choices that are made, if there are any. I've worked in situations on a
Speaker:tv show where they'll go from a pop track to a country
Speaker:song. And the goal is to just tighten everything
Speaker:a little bit. We're not making it perfect. Right. Do you have advice for
Speaker:people on how to find that kind of musical line? I think when
Speaker:people these days think of editing, they're thinking of hitting the quantize button,
Speaker:hitting the automatic tune button in melodyne, throw
Speaker:an auto tune on. But I think there's a lot more to making musical choices.
Speaker:What do you think? Do you have anything to say about that? Absolutely.
Speaker:I think a couple of variables will
Speaker:influence a decision to do something quick and automated like that. One of them is,
Speaker:is there an insane deadline? And a lot of the.
Speaker:I do a lot of mixing and producing for ads
Speaker:and things like that. Those turnaround times are so fast
Speaker:and there isn't always time to do a
Speaker:finely crafted vocal comp and edit
Speaker:and all that stuff, which is why when I'm there to record
Speaker:those types of things, I'm often making those
Speaker:decisions on the fly very quickly, playlisting everything, but
Speaker:always pulling stuff down my top picks onto new tracks. And
Speaker:that's a whole other method of working really quickly. So there
Speaker:are times when the other variable, I was going to say, if you're under deadline
Speaker:super crunch mode, that's one. And the other
Speaker:is genre specific. So certain genres
Speaker:definitely lend themselves more to a
Speaker:quantized, be it rhythmically or harmonically
Speaker:quantized type of thing. And
Speaker:sometimes I feel like it's sloppy or should have
Speaker:been given more care. And other times it's exactly what the doctor
Speaker:ordered, but that's never my go to. Even if it's
Speaker:a super pop track, I'm always
Speaker:trying to preserve as much as
Speaker:possible of everyone's feel, even if
Speaker:it's going to be a disco beat and it's very
Speaker:same type of thing going the whole time. And maybe it's James
Speaker:Gadson or something playing this beat and the sounds are awesome and
Speaker:it's going to be a pop track full of
Speaker:synths and whatever the case may be for a modern
Speaker:sound with James Gadson playing the drums or something like that, right.
Speaker:To just throw him on a grid in service of a
Speaker:loopable sounding thing, you could definitely do. But,
Speaker:man, like, if you've ever had the chance to
Speaker:solo and then
Speaker:unsove,
Speaker:it's remarkable. You know, I'll never forget, like, quick side note
Speaker:before I get back to know the first time I ever worked with him was
Speaker:on, was it Justin Timberlake?
Speaker:It was at Neil diamond studio. And I'm trying to remember if it was with
Speaker:Neil or Justin but he was playing the groove
Speaker:and we soloed the drums and I was
Speaker:the editor. I don't remember what I was
Speaker:doing. Assistant engineer editing. I knew I was going to be
Speaker:editing this stuff anyway. And I thought to
Speaker:myself like, oh my gosh, what a mess. These
Speaker:drums, it's going to take a lot of work. I'm young and this is
Speaker:a three second analysis of someone soloing on the
Speaker:board. Like, oh man. And then you unsolo it and it's like,
Speaker:don't touch a freaking thing. It is so
Speaker:grooving. Yes. And he's playing to the band and we've just
Speaker:soloed him isolated. But man, when you put it all together, it's so good.
Speaker:So all that to say, these are world class
Speaker:musicians, as you said. They're laying down
Speaker:incredible stuff. They're vibing with other players in the room.
Speaker:What I'm trying to do is with the end result
Speaker:always in mind, and that's something that is always going on
Speaker:with me and I'm sure with you and others, that's the guiding
Speaker:force. And I talk about this in the vocal production
Speaker:course. It's like we have nothing else than
Speaker:our muse and our creative ideas of
Speaker:what this thing is supposed to sound like. Which of these takes
Speaker:sounds like a record as you would expect it to sound.
Speaker:So I'm really trying to throughout the full
Speaker:editing process when I have the time and I'm not like,
Speaker:we need this in 30 minutes or less. I
Speaker:love to first pick through the takes and
Speaker:find the takes that are inherently the
Speaker:grooviest or whatever adjective you could pick that would
Speaker:be perfect for the type of music you're working on and then
Speaker:move as little as possible all by
Speaker:ear. Don't ever do beat detective
Speaker:and stuff like that. And that's not to shame on anyone who does or
Speaker:that tool. I do use that tool all the time
Speaker:when I'm in crunch mode or when the drummer isn't a
Speaker:drummer, it's actually the guitar player who needed to late. We just needed a drum
Speaker:texture for some
Speaker:32nd Eminem's queue or something like that. Basically just
Speaker:needed a snare overhead. Yeah, we call that waveform
Speaker:donation. The rest of it is just going to
Speaker:be an editing task. But when it's
Speaker:incredible players and you have the
Speaker:time and luxury to give it your
Speaker:all, as I'm very lucky to be able to do
Speaker:a lot of the time, I want
Speaker:every awesome record sounding moment to be
Speaker:not ironed out, to be preserved.
Speaker:All the while. If the drummer and the bassist hit a note
Speaker:off where it kind of speeds up. The pocket is still there, but
Speaker:it's a little ahead of where the singer put it and then the bass player.
Speaker:So I'm moving section by section and just trying to do
Speaker:as little tuck ins and touch ups to keep what
Speaker:they do magical. Okay. Somewhere somebody's
Speaker:thinking this, and I kind of inherently have an answer to it. But I'm going
Speaker:to ask you. You said in there, pick every groovy
Speaker:moment or every hit record moment. A lot of that's
Speaker:going to come down to, I would imagine, in your opinion, taste
Speaker:like what makes something a hit record moment for you? You get a
Speaker:feeling. You just like, that's the best take, or you like the
Speaker:kind of the dirtier take. That's like, identify for somebody that has never
Speaker:sat in that chair. What makes something a record moment hard question. It
Speaker:is, and I think the answer is different for absolutely everybody.
Speaker:But I think that foundationally, it just comes from being
Speaker:a listener and a fan, knowing the records that you
Speaker:love and knowing the way they make you
Speaker:feel, and identifying that feeling in
Speaker:new recorded material that you've never heard before by way of
Speaker:working on something that just got recorded. I think that that is always
Speaker:the guiding light. And if the
Speaker:goal isn't to make a hit record, as it often isn't, the goal
Speaker:might be to make the most thrashed, non
Speaker:top 40, angry, angular, artistic
Speaker:thing you can. And within those parameters, you can
Speaker:also, if you're a fan of that style of music and
Speaker:know that type of stuff, there's probably records that
Speaker:were formidable in your own upbringing and
Speaker:life or current life that you think really move
Speaker:you. And those become sort of the template or
Speaker:the blueprint within your mind's ear as a
Speaker:producer to know which takes move you in that same
Speaker:way. So just to separate it from always everything
Speaker:needing to be a hit. There's lots of music that I love working
Speaker:on that will never be a hit, but it
Speaker:is a hit. And that's why I say sounds like
Speaker:a record, because it kind of removes it from any sort of
Speaker:commercial status. It's more a
Speaker:feeling you've succeeded in
Speaker:sounding like something I want to listen to.
Speaker:Yeah, totally. That excites me right from the first note.
Speaker:It's kind of like why I might go harder, work harder longer
Speaker:with an artist on the opening or closing line of
Speaker:a song or the intro or the
Speaker:outro. Those are real defining
Speaker:stage setting moments that when they come
Speaker:on on those records that you remember in your mind, that really move you, man,
Speaker:you know, from the second, it's not like those records that
Speaker:shape your musical identity. Like, yeah, you just got to
Speaker:wait till the second chorus. That's when the magic happens. It's like,
Speaker:no, those favorites in our minds, I have chills. Just.
Speaker:I'm not even thinking about a specific record. But note one,
Speaker:it's on. Oh, my gosh. You know, this is a thing. This
Speaker:is a vibe. It's a moment. It's a record.
Speaker:So just trying to find those moments as they're going down and
Speaker:taking note of them and remembering where to find
Speaker:them to put together. Yeah, I totally agree. Oh, man.
Speaker:I'm trying to think of one, but there are so many songs that you know
Speaker:from that first kick drum, or even though it's just like, totally. Just
Speaker:a kick drum. Same kick drum that's been on, like, 50 records, but
Speaker:that one kick drum. Yeah, totally. Shout out to the ember mug,
Speaker:by the way. Right, dude, ember mug. Good
Speaker:eye, man. Life changing. For anybody that's just
Speaker:listening, we're talking about a temperature controlled coffee mug. I mean,
Speaker:it's goddamn magical. It is.
Speaker:I've tried a lot of different heated mugs or hot
Speaker:plates for tea or coffee or whatever, and my
Speaker:amazing wife Carissa bought this for me, I don't know,
Speaker:a year or two ago, know, Christmas or
Speaker:birthday or something. And I thought, like, well, how much was
Speaker:this thing? And it's kind of know. And I was like, this is
Speaker:very sweet. Thank you. But this has got to be know. And
Speaker:then I tried it, and I was like, I need lots of these. I
Speaker:need extra warming plates. So I've got, like, a little. I got my charger right
Speaker:here. Yes. And then I have a charger that's
Speaker:always next to my bed. So when it's like, wind down tv
Speaker:time, I just move the mug into there. It's
Speaker:freaking awesome. Well, I think you've worked at studios for. It sounds like
Speaker:maybe a few years longer than me. There is nothing that sucks as bad as,
Speaker:like, you take a five minute break, you go into the lounge, like, you get
Speaker:some coffee that the runner just made. It's, like, hot. And you're like, this is
Speaker:amazing. And the singer is like, I got to sing right now. And you put
Speaker:it down, and then you come back, like, 2 hours later, and you're just like,
Speaker:oh, I'm just going to throw it out now. I'll just start over. But just
Speaker:the fact that my coffee is hot for, like, always, I don't know, like an
Speaker:hour and a half, you can just kind of just sit there. This has nothing
Speaker:to do with music, but it's a super important thing to remember people.
Speaker:I would argue it has everything to do with music.
Speaker:Yeah, totally. I drink
Speaker:coffee all day, and I always have my
Speaker:yetis and stuff like that. When
Speaker:I'm on the go, if I know I'm going to be at a studio for
Speaker:a long time, several days or weeks, I bring the
Speaker:ember set up with me. I travel with it.
Speaker:My wife and I do that too. We go on vacation. We take our
Speaker:ember. Totally. I was just talking about this with an
Speaker:awesome member in mixed protege who also is super coffee
Speaker:aholic. And we were talking know, well,
Speaker:what's your favorite place in Nashville for coffee? And he had just moved
Speaker:there. And I was like, honestly, I don't know. Because whenever
Speaker:I go work in Nashville or anywhere, I pack my
Speaker:ember. I pack freshly ground beans of my
Speaker:choosing. I've got a mini kettle, hot water
Speaker:kettle. I've got a little pour over set up just because I love
Speaker:waking up to good coffee. And if there isn't coffee available,
Speaker:that's good. I just have less of a pep in
Speaker:my step. And it's like, I'm going to the studio to work all day. I
Speaker:need that pep. That's right. Yeah. Coffee in the studio is
Speaker:definitely a thing. And there's so many engineers that, I mean,
Speaker:we're already easily distracted by details. Like, tweak
Speaker:this, tweak that, tweak that. And then you're like, hey, do you want to roast
Speaker:your own beans? You want to get this expensive grinder? Do you need an espresso
Speaker:machine? It's just like, straight down the rabbit
Speaker:hole. Straight into the rabbit hole. Absolutely.
Speaker:And especially as engineers or
Speaker:people who are gear obsessed anyway, as well,
Speaker:add that obsession to it, and it's like, now, of course, there's all kinds of
Speaker:coffee gear you can have. It's totally
Speaker:true. That's totally true. Well, I had a question that was going to follow up
Speaker:whatever we were talking about, but that's obviously gone now. So let's do a hard
Speaker:change. I want to talk vocal tuning a little bit. I know that you're a
Speaker:big Melodyne user. Hopefully you're not
Speaker:sponsored by ceremony in any way. No, but
Speaker:Melodyne Ara and pro tools, fucking amazing.
Speaker:But do you think it sounds different? I feel like it sounds different. Interesting.
Speaker:I feel like it's a little bit more processed, but just being
Speaker:able to do that has been a lifesaver. But I don't like to do leads
Speaker:in it. I just feel a little sketched out. Am I crazy? What do you
Speaker:think? I don't know. And I love
Speaker:this question because I recently had a text
Speaker:exchange with someone else who was asking about
Speaker:sound quality.
Speaker:That whole side thing, I kind of was like, I've never heard what you're
Speaker:hearing and you're in a different daw. I don't know what the
Speaker:scene is over there. Yeah, but from my experience, the
Speaker:Ara came out and I'm like, about
Speaker:time. I cannot wait. And I jumped right into it,
Speaker:and I loved it. I loved not having to
Speaker:render. I loved being able to trim or do some clip
Speaker:gain on a piece of audio that's in
Speaker:Melodyne. But once it's in Melodyne, you're
Speaker:kind of stuck. You can't do any more editing when you're using the plugin. So,
Speaker:as you know, to have that Ara support is game changing.
Speaker:To be able to just freely roam about the clips and the
Speaker:melodyne everything, it's great. But man,
Speaker:I got burned twice
Speaker:where hours and hours and hours of work
Speaker:just up and vanished, where you open the session the next day and
Speaker:it's like, no, we can't find the transfers of this
Speaker:stuff. And at first I was like, well, this may
Speaker:be my first time, and it wasn't that much time that I lost. And I
Speaker:was like, that's weird. And then it happened again.
Speaker:I'd spent so much time editing these very tricky vocals,
Speaker:and I lost it all. And I was like, this is
Speaker:crazy. I will not use this until they get this
Speaker:sorted out. And I'm not sponsored by anyone. I
Speaker:feel bad putting that out there, but I don't know if it's avid
Speaker:or ceremony or whatever, but for me, not
Speaker:ready for primetime. So I've moved back to my
Speaker:regular way of the plugin. I have melodyne pro
Speaker:or studio. It's expensive, and I tell people
Speaker:who are just getting into it, you definitely want
Speaker:assistant, at least. You need all the tools,
Speaker:like spring for at least the assistant. And here's the
Speaker:reason why. Even though it is very expensive, but
Speaker:it's what I do, so I do the studio, and I love that you can.
Speaker:I never use the standalone, but the ability to see all
Speaker:your melodyne tracks in one interface and transfer
Speaker:them in. That was a huge change when they did that. It's great. And there's
Speaker:one other thing in there in studio. I can't think
Speaker:of what it is, but that really sets it. There's a really nice
Speaker:benefit to have. It escapes me at the moment. But, yeah,
Speaker:I totally love it. And I'm not sure where the hang
Speaker:up on the Ara portion is. I really, really want
Speaker:to use that, and I just can't yet. So all that to
Speaker:say, in the short time I used it, I didn't notice really any
Speaker:sound differences. I wasn't looking for any,
Speaker:but I hope one day soon, under a
Speaker:new release or something with promised stability,
Speaker:I'll be able to weigh in on that. Luckily, Nagawood, I have
Speaker:not had that problem. But I do know one other person that lost
Speaker:what they were working on, and I feel like. I don't know. You know how
Speaker:you can convince yourself so easily? Like, you can mismatch a compressor and then just
Speaker:turn the knob and be like, a tiny bit, and you're like, yeah, that sounds
Speaker:great. And the assistant's like, yeah, that's not on.
Speaker:Everybody's done it, but to me, it feels like it gets a little bit, like,
Speaker:whatever the flattened tool is. Yeah, there's, like, the d
Speaker:vibrato and then the one that evens it.
Speaker:Yeah, that one seems more aggressive. I do
Speaker:things with that that I used to do, and now when I do it,
Speaker:that's when I start to hear. When you have a long, sustained note, I start
Speaker:to hear a process there, but, oh, yeah. Anyway, I've gotten in the habit of
Speaker:just, like, fixing. You listen to Bvs while you're mixing, and there's like,
Speaker:obviously one side is flat. It's just so nice to be able to select that
Speaker:word, load it into Melodyne, push it up just
Speaker:as far as it needs to go, and then commit it. And that might be
Speaker:the reason that I haven't run into the problem that you're having is I'm very
Speaker:quickly committing it and just moving on with my life. I think
Speaker:that I got lured into the
Speaker:romantic notion that I wouldn't have to commit until
Speaker:the end, maybe mix time or something like that.
Speaker:But I will say I use Melodyne
Speaker:constantly, and I'm very
Speaker:attuned to what the processing sounds like
Speaker:when it does become audible. I'm also very in
Speaker:tune to what it sounds like on films and tv shows, and
Speaker:I bang my head against the wall, especially on those that are giant
Speaker:budget going, like, who melodyned this?
Speaker:You can hear it so clearly, but. You know,
Speaker:you've done at least. I've been in this situation where somebody on, like, an overdub
Speaker:vo stage records some famous person singing
Speaker:acapella, and then they send it to the composer, and the composer is like, you
Speaker:want me to do what, with this? Yeah, no, and I do that.
Speaker:I've recorded so many superstar
Speaker:actors and athletes and stuff like that. And you can do
Speaker:it. You can work magic. You can make pretty
Speaker:much anyone. Of course, I'm usually there producing them as well
Speaker:to help get at least the, you know, it's not like a self record or
Speaker:something like that, but it can be done. And so
Speaker:I always feel like it's sort of. Sometimes I hear what I think is the
Speaker:equivalent of the auto mode set to stun or something
Speaker:like that. I guess I'm in it all the time and I know what it
Speaker:sounds like when it's audible, and so I'm constantly vigilant
Speaker:about not being audible, and I love that.
Speaker:I can't remember what it's called either, but the one that takes the average, use
Speaker:that constantly. But I do
Speaker:chop things a lot, and I
Speaker:think I touch on this in the vocal production course as well, where
Speaker:I'm definitely. When a long note or even a
Speaker:short know has a big
Speaker:goes, he probably wouldn't even remember this. But when Andrew Shepps
Speaker:was showing me Melodyne for the first time, this was on a
Speaker:system of a down album, a double album.
Speaker:There was some long know. He's like, oh, see, this one's got all
Speaker:the warbles. You can see the crazy vibrato. It's like it's got a little too
Speaker:much mustard on it. So I always think of it
Speaker:as when I'm fixing the mustard on something
Speaker:that's really got a lot, rather than flatten it all
Speaker:out or take the average. I'm definitely not
Speaker:going to cut every mustard vibrato, but when you get those
Speaker:crazy shapes or the general vibe is like,
Speaker:it started sharp and then it went flat. I'm definitely going to chop that
Speaker:and move them. Maintain the mustard shape, but
Speaker:bring it kind of globally in line. And then I love using
Speaker:the note transition tool to
Speaker:smooth out those bumps. That's always my first go to.
Speaker:I guess it kind of falls in line with what we were talking about with
Speaker:drum editing. It's like, I want to keep
Speaker:as much as I can that the artist
Speaker:sang and you can see it. It's one of the wild things about working
Speaker:in graphic editors like that. You can see somebody's
Speaker:vocal idiosyncrasies, like, oh, it's interesting. I never would have noticed
Speaker:it, but they always attack from above the note, or
Speaker:they always have this deep swoop on certain
Speaker:things or just the stuff that is who we are.
Speaker:We all do these things. It's just bizarre or surreal to
Speaker:see it, but that's what makes them them. And I'm not there to
Speaker:flatten all that stuff out, but if they do their
Speaker:thing and overall it's up here, I'm just going to try
Speaker:to keep that shape, but bring it here. And if
Speaker:there's an issue, I'm just going to chop the part. That's the
Speaker:issue. My thing that I never want
Speaker:to do is just. I never want to have it sound
Speaker:perfect because it's not. And there will even be
Speaker:cases when I've corrected some issues to the left
Speaker:and the right. And now this note that I haven't even
Speaker:corrected sounds like it's been corrected, even though it
Speaker:hasn't. They just nailed that note. I might even
Speaker:mess with that note a bit just because I need these to be perfect.
Speaker:This one's insignificant, but it, for some reason, is sounding
Speaker:tuned. I never want it to
Speaker:feel worked on. And
Speaker:there's a lot of stuff that I mentioned in that vocal production course
Speaker:about ways to force yourself to be a
Speaker:listener and not be looking at the screen and to
Speaker:constantly be checking your work away
Speaker:from the sweet spot. And with a lyric
Speaker:sheet to keep track of things that you hear that are
Speaker:odd. And sometimes the things that I hear that are OD
Speaker:haven't even been worked on. Or there's little surprises
Speaker:where it's like, oh, it's not from me. I didn't even
Speaker:put that into Melodyne. It sounds tuned or whatever, and
Speaker:then you're like, well, it caught my ear. So what are we going to do
Speaker:about it? Let's go looking through the raw takes and see if there's a
Speaker:better piece to put into that comp right there. Yeah, I was going to say
Speaker:just two quick melodyne tips. One, I've found tuning really
Speaker:quiet makes it really apparent that something is
Speaker:out. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And I like to do a pass with the
Speaker:music, tune it with the music, but then do a solo pass
Speaker:where you just listen down and I find that anytime you've put something in the
Speaker:wrong note, it's very clear when you're in solo that
Speaker:you've gone out of scale. And sometimes in the music, you don't catch it in
Speaker:the music for some reason. But it's that solo moment where you're like, whoa, okay,
Speaker:that's a half step out. My bad. Sorry, guys.
Speaker:For sure. I mean, to add on to that, I would say I never
Speaker:tune in headphones. There's some kind of weird
Speaker:acoustic weirdness. You ever be
Speaker:like, working in headphones for a while, and then you take
Speaker:them off and it sounds like the song's in a different key. There's just
Speaker:weird stuff that pitch wise, I'm not saying music can't be enjoyed
Speaker:in headphones. I love listening in headphones, but when it comes to pitch, I don't
Speaker:really trust it. I'll do it in a hotel room or something if I have
Speaker:to. Yeah. It's definitely less than ideal. I agree with that. I agree.
Speaker:Yeah. Since you said headphones, you've recorded a lot of bands, you've recorded a lot
Speaker:of singers. Something that I haven't somehow not really talked about on this
Speaker:show is how important a headphone mix is. I mean, especially for
Speaker:singers, right? Oh, gosh, yeah. Do you have any thoughts on
Speaker:just, like, how do you approach a band session versus a singer? Do you give
Speaker:singers control or do you give them what you want so you can kind of
Speaker:help them out? What's your headphone mixer philosophy when it comes to
Speaker:just making music? Headphone mixes are everything.
Speaker:Everything. Like, if I had to pick a more amazing sound,
Speaker:like, I'd rather the headphone mix be killing while I work
Speaker:out the control room mix for myself later.
Speaker:If it's a full band and we have the luxury
Speaker:of mixer systems, like a private
Speaker:queue or some of the other Furman or here
Speaker:back or some of those things, that can be great. It definitely
Speaker:takes a load off the engineer to an extent. Yeah,
Speaker:right. It can also be very overwhelming for certain artists.
Speaker:So when using a system like that,
Speaker:I'm always, and with how
Speaker:staff or assistants are on this as well,
Speaker:constantly throughout the day or first thing in the
Speaker:day, making sure that those are set
Speaker:nicely. And I talk to the artists and every one of the musicians as
Speaker:well, band members or studio players or whatever,
Speaker:before giving them the headphones, just a quick
Speaker:conversation. Do you know these things? Have you used this thing before? I'm sure you
Speaker:have. But here's kind of. I like to set the
Speaker:master, like around noon or 02:00
Speaker:it will go super loud. So here's kind of how I do it, because that
Speaker:way, then you've got a little headroom to some play to give yourself some
Speaker:more overall volume. And I'll do it too. I love the
Speaker:private cues, and they all have this, I think, where I can have my own
Speaker:headphones as I'm showing them this and I'm building the mix
Speaker:for us. And so I always kind of give them a starter, make sure they
Speaker:understand where everything is. Everything is labeled really clear
Speaker:and then unless there's an issue,
Speaker:I won't mess with their settings because they're going to make
Speaker:themselves at home and get something that works for them. And until I hear
Speaker:that, hey, I'm all the way up, I'm blah, blah, blah, and I can't get
Speaker:more. Let's run out there. Oh, I see what happened.
Speaker:You turned your master fader down and everything's cranked. So
Speaker:I'm going to turn all these down and I'll just walk them through it again
Speaker:right there with my headphones. There might be a million things going on. I'm doing
Speaker:this really fast. Like, I. I got got you, you. Here's what happened. We'll bring
Speaker:this back. I'm going to bring this up. Is this cool? And
Speaker:I'm not doing it blind or deaf, as the case may be.
Speaker:I'm doing it listening and quickly putting it together, something that I think sounds
Speaker:good. So those systems are
Speaker:great once people know how
Speaker:to set themselves up. So the caveat
Speaker:being like, I always premix all those boxes
Speaker:to a way, and I'll sit at every location
Speaker:and listen and set up a mix that I think
Speaker:they'll dig. So when they put the headphones on,
Speaker:their ideal response is like, here, let me show you this mixer.
Speaker:And like, oh, I mean, it sounds great.
Speaker:I'm good. Let's go. That's like the goal. Yeah.
Speaker:And if that works out, then of course
Speaker:it becomes really handy because it takes some work off
Speaker:of me as an engineer to chase every
Speaker:player's individual request. And if there's a lot of players, that
Speaker:can be a lot of requests. Yeah. So the other side of that, which is
Speaker:probably much more applicable to the majority of listeners
Speaker:and home recording people and even a lot of studios,
Speaker:is just like, I'm in tons of situations, my
Speaker:studio included, where you get what I'm hearing,
Speaker:and there's a great simplicity to that. There's a great benefit
Speaker:to that as well, because you're hearing
Speaker:what I'm hearing. So I'm always tinkering with things and trying to make it as
Speaker:good as possible. Unlike the boxes, it's much
Speaker:less of a set it and forget it. Now, the flip side of that, of
Speaker:course, is any changes that I want to make,
Speaker:even on input, they're going to hear those things.
Speaker:And so I make all of those changes during a recording
Speaker:pass. I try not to do it during a recording pass, but if I have
Speaker:to, very subtle moves. Yeah, that's a good
Speaker:point. And very subtle moves always during recording
Speaker:on the input side. If I'm getting a lot and too many
Speaker:overs on, let's say, wow, the singer is really
Speaker:singing a lot louder than that first pass. And we're
Speaker:in a recorded take. I'm going to find either a fully variable fader on the
Speaker:output of the mic pre or something like that. Or if there's
Speaker:only detented options, I'll pick a spot where they're taking
Speaker:a breath and I've heard this part before, and I'll click it down real fast
Speaker:in a moment. That won't ruin the recording. But even if you're not
Speaker:recording and you're making changes to what
Speaker:they're listening to, the rhythm section track that's pre recorded and we're in
Speaker:overdub land, it's very easy for me to.
Speaker:Yes, I've got an ear on what they're singing and everything, but
Speaker:the bass should be louder and like, oh, I forgot, the
Speaker:percussion is muted. Don't do any of that stuff. Or
Speaker:certainly don't turn on percussion when they're in the middle of a
Speaker:pass. I might turn up the bass, but I'll do it on the
Speaker:playback fader very gently. So I'm always
Speaker:trying to be very aware of what's going. Yeah, they're hearing what I'm
Speaker:hearing. One of the bummers
Speaker:with that limited setup, of which there are relatively few, there's
Speaker:great case to be made for just like. Yeah, keep it simple. One of the
Speaker:downsides with that, of course, is, like, if someone needs click and
Speaker:there's only one, the headphones are a mirror
Speaker:of the mix bus. That means I'm going to be listening
Speaker:to a bunch of click, too, which is not ideal. Much rather
Speaker:be like, you got the click knob on your. It's channel seven.
Speaker:Turn it up. Everybody else can turn it down, whatever. I'm not
Speaker:listening to it. I will always keep it. If I'm on a
Speaker:console, I'll keep that click in the mix enough
Speaker:so that when everybody stops playing and I'm still recording, just to catch any
Speaker:extra magic. Oh, the clicks on. Let me turn that off.
Speaker:So it's just not like blasting. I like to be in record in
Speaker:between takes because some incredible stuff can happen.
Speaker:And if that click is going, a, it's going to be super obnoxious, and b,
Speaker:they'll know a recording is happening and I want them to not
Speaker:be self conscious about that stuff. That's a pretty
Speaker:awesome trick right there. I wanted to go back and just tell everybody
Speaker:how important it is not to turn that neve knob in the
Speaker:singer's long. Like, if something is a
Speaker:little overcompressed or on the edge of distortion
Speaker:and you're like, oh, I have to turn this down. Just wait until the gap,
Speaker:like Dana said, you're going to get a breath. If you're going to screw something
Speaker:up, screw the breath up. Flip that knob. Right. Because that might
Speaker:be the best long note that they do. And it's easier
Speaker:to. Okay, a most listeners are not going to hear that. It's over compressed
Speaker:or distorted and you can kind of fix the distortion to a certain extent these
Speaker:days. So like, don't. Yeah, there's plenty of records that have
Speaker:mistakes in the best part, so don't put a mistake in.
Speaker:Know that's perfectly, very
Speaker:well said, but. I wanted to follow up with you talking about staying in
Speaker:record. This feels like something that maybe comes from your time with Rick. This sounds
Speaker:like something that he would be into to always be recording because you never know
Speaker:what's going to happen. Yeah, for sure. What's the philosophy behind that? How often
Speaker:do you do it? And what if you're doing playlists? Do you flip real
Speaker:quick, go back and record? Like you just let it?
Speaker:The always, always be recording for sure is
Speaker:very much learned from Rick with
Speaker:safeguards know where there's two parts to this on one
Speaker:hand, in those sessions and in any
Speaker:studio that I'm working that has
Speaker:another system. Like we call it the dat rig at Shangri
Speaker:La. Just hearkening back to the olden days
Speaker:of dats, always getting a running two track mix of
Speaker:what's coming off the console. These days we do that obviously with just
Speaker:a know little Apollo setup or something like that.
Speaker:And that's a really handy thing that
Speaker:I've gotten in the habit over the years as well. Anywhere,
Speaker:to always have this separate rig recording
Speaker:everything. Just a stereo mix. Usually it's a
Speaker:stereo mix off the console or if we're talking in the
Speaker:box type of thing, it could just be a malted output from one and two
Speaker:of the DaW or something, but it's going to a separate DAW
Speaker:that is recording all day long.
Speaker:And it would usually be the
Speaker:console mix bus output plus
Speaker:ascend from whatever studio talkback is going on.
Speaker:You popping those talkbacks on and off between takes, I'm assuming.
Speaker:Well, yes and yes and
Speaker:no. There's a couple of different ways to do it, but whatever it is, or
Speaker:at least my talkback, if not everyone else's, and
Speaker:it's usually everyone else's because we're usually tying all those things together.
Speaker:Talkback mics out in the room, which will either be on
Speaker:one of their mixer knobs for them to control, or
Speaker:oftentimes I have it on a fader on the console
Speaker:where I can bring it up for them in between takes,
Speaker:so that they are always hearing my talk back
Speaker:and Rick's talk back if we're working. And then they
Speaker:can hear their band talk back only when I bring the fader up in
Speaker:between takes, so that during takes they're not hearing a room
Speaker:full of super compressed talkback mics. And then whatever that
Speaker:system is built on, usually an augs send on the console, we
Speaker:can malt that send, and send that to a third channel on the dat
Speaker:rig, so that separate from the gold
Speaker:nuggets of what's coming through the console, we'll have the
Speaker:talkback as well. I'm always recording in
Speaker:pro tools, multi track. The moment the artist
Speaker:arrives, I hit record. I've already tested all the tracks.
Speaker:I've already done a half hour of recording while we're
Speaker:doing final setup, just to make sure the
Speaker:discs are taking it. And we're not going to have any hiccups or surprises when
Speaker:the artist arrives. Even if I hear them down the
Speaker:hall, we go into record. And of course, the DaT rig
Speaker:is always recording, so if I'm not in record, we
Speaker:can still catch. Oftentimes it'll be somebody in the control
Speaker:room in between. We've listened to playback of a take,
Speaker:and now we're discussing next moves or ideas.
Speaker:And pro tools isn't running because we're not listening to anything. And there aren't
Speaker:like live mics for recording per se in the control room,
Speaker:but there are mics going to that dat recorder. And so if
Speaker:anybody is like, oh, what if the chorus went, dad.
Speaker:And then, oh, that's a great idea. And then a minute later they're
Speaker:like, what was that thing that you sang?
Speaker:I don't remember. To the dat rig.
Speaker:It's on there. And now you've captured that
Speaker:thing. So even if in the control room, a magic idea
Speaker:occurs and isn't quickly remembered, there's a record of
Speaker:it. But what I was going to say is like, I might hear the band
Speaker:enter the studio down the hall
Speaker:or something like that, or be told that they just arrived.
Speaker:I'm going to throw it and record just in case someone starts
Speaker:singing down that hallway or busts into the studio singing
Speaker:opera voice, being funny, and it's hysterical and would make a
Speaker:hilarious outro to a song or whatever. The worst that
Speaker:can happen is I'll burn through
Speaker:45 minutes of nothing, and I've been
Speaker:listening the whole time, and nothing happened. They haven't even entered the
Speaker:studio, and they're just having a meeting out there. I just command
Speaker:period. And it's like it never happened. And then I immediately command
Speaker:Spacebar and start recording again. So when I know that I'm
Speaker:doing my due diligence, but nothing has happened, nobody's even in the
Speaker:studio at the moment. Just command period. The disk space is
Speaker:back to where it was, but you have to be very certain
Speaker:that you know what you're doing with that command period, because there is
Speaker:no undo for that. No coming back from that one. No.
Speaker:That's awesome. Yeah. So always recording, because you never know
Speaker:what's going to happen. Also, too, if there's nothing going on and the band isn't
Speaker:even in the room. But I need to go to the bathroom. I'm in
Speaker:record, and I'll just make eyes with the assistant. Like, I'm
Speaker:rolling. Just step over if anything happens and I come back and
Speaker:anything happened now they're still outside. Okay. Command period. Whatever.
Speaker:Yeah. That's amazing. To your recollection, has anything ever come
Speaker:off that dat rig that got released or added to anything?
Speaker:I'm sure. Well, two things more often. I'm also
Speaker:catching it on pro tools. Right on the main rig.
Speaker:And in that sense, yeah, tons of stuff.
Speaker:But what the dat rig is
Speaker:more often helpful for
Speaker:are just referencing an idea that was fleeting,
Speaker:that just somebody just needs a refresher of.
Speaker:And this happens so often, too, where it's like, I remember
Speaker:what I sang or speaking as if I were the artist
Speaker:or the band or something, or maybe it was even an idea that
Speaker:I threw out there or something, and I'll try to recreate
Speaker:it, but. There. Was something
Speaker:about the way it went down, and then you can go back and
Speaker:listen, and it's like, oh, yeah, I'm singing exactly what I sang. But I
Speaker:didn't realize that someone had a guitar in the room and
Speaker:they were playing a different chord. That's what made it so awesome.
Speaker:So the secret wasn't the singing, but it was something else going
Speaker:on in the room, and they weren't even in the room with us. These mics
Speaker:were picking up somebody tinkering on the piano out there. So it's
Speaker:like ghost hunting. Yeah. Just got to
Speaker:be ready. Better have that EKG or
Speaker:whatever it's called, rolling to catch the spooky
Speaker:stuff. That's amazing. Well, since we're kind of on the topic. I wanted to ask
Speaker:you a question about working with Rick. Is there one thing that
Speaker:you took away from working with him that you think you could really only
Speaker:take away from working with a producer like that in the. Like he could tell
Speaker:people how he works. There must be a million things that stick with you. But
Speaker:is there a standout? Yeah, there's a million. I'd
Speaker:say just seeing the way he
Speaker:works with people and runs
Speaker:the session, including myself and my
Speaker:services and everybody else on staff, and
Speaker:it's all an extension of him and
Speaker:his style and seeing him
Speaker:diffuse so many worried artists or
Speaker:seeing him encourage ideas, just watching that
Speaker:interaction has been just an incredible
Speaker:experience for all the many years that
Speaker:we've worked on stuff together. It's just always a treat
Speaker:when I see other people in sessions getting really angry
Speaker:or. It's not part of his world
Speaker:to be volatile or
Speaker:angry like that. And certainly everybody's different,
Speaker:and artists bring their whole situation to
Speaker:a recording, and recording in general can be very nerve
Speaker:wracking under the microscope or you want to do your best and all that.
Speaker:He's just very encouraging and
Speaker:relaxing and a great listener, both to
Speaker:music and to the ideas and concerns
Speaker:of the artist. It's wonderful. Yeah, it's been awesome
Speaker:to. I mean, I can't imagine. I've never met Rick
Speaker:yet alone worked with him. But I think a lot of people
Speaker:know, they think about production. Production is now like, it's so much about
Speaker:the technicalities and making everything, and it's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker:you're not really killing that guitar part. Let me get that guitar. I'll play it
Speaker:for you. There's so much of that that I think people forget that
Speaker:making art is about people. And when you have producers like
Speaker:Rick or some of the classic producers, that old school
Speaker:mentality of like, I'm not going to play any music, I'm just going to guide
Speaker:these people where I think they should go. I think that's just
Speaker:like. Maybe it's because I'm getting older, but to me that's just like,
Speaker:so I would love to get to that point, but you're talking about people that
Speaker:are on this other level of emotional understanding. I'm
Speaker:sure that it was a trip to get to work with him regularly, so that's
Speaker:great. Yeah, he's amazing. I have nothing
Speaker:but love and total respect
Speaker:and thankful to be taken along for so many
Speaker:rides like that. And I know exactly what you're saying. The
Speaker:word producer or the meaning of it as it relates to music
Speaker:has really changed or maybe split
Speaker:into a couple of different meanings. And I think a
Speaker:lot about that stuff, not just to be
Speaker:philosophical about it, but really as it relates to
Speaker:work that I do and explaining
Speaker:roles to what I can bring, wearing different
Speaker:hats to an artist project. Lately I've been thinking a lot about,
Speaker:like, maybe it's like, yeah, these two different forks.
Speaker:There's songwriter producers and there's
Speaker:record producers. And I mean that in the
Speaker:literal copyright sense, right? Not in
Speaker:any sort of hierarchical. I like that name better.
Speaker:But I mean, literally, there are a lot of producers who I think
Speaker:are songwriters, and all of the above are working
Speaker:towards the record. The sound recording is what I
Speaker:mean by that. But there are certainly a lot of producers who
Speaker:excel at the songwriting
Speaker:part, and producer has become, I
Speaker:think, through especially sort of r and b, hip hop beat
Speaker:making culture the de facto name for
Speaker:someone who writes songs in that genre and
Speaker:also puts the sounds together in a sound
Speaker:recording. But I think that that's sometimes confusing
Speaker:about the more traditional record producer who
Speaker:is maybe not less of a songwriter,
Speaker:or perhaps is, but isn't there for that role,
Speaker:someone who likes to work with songwriters
Speaker:to create the best sound recording, the best record
Speaker:possible for that moment, for that song for which
Speaker:there might be dozens of different records serving that song?
Speaker:And my dream has always, even though I am
Speaker:a musician, I do a lot of writing and co writing.
Speaker:My real main love is record
Speaker:producing, record making, being helpful
Speaker:in an overall guidance type of way
Speaker:for a project that might have
Speaker:various writers and songwriter
Speaker:producers involved. Yeah, it's a tricky
Speaker:one, to your point. The terminology changes
Speaker:and can be hard to understand or
Speaker:dissect or explain to others. And I'm not sure that my answer is
Speaker:the right answer. It's just kind of how I've been thinking about it
Speaker:lately. Yeah, I think it depends a lot on the
Speaker:artist you think about. Maybe there's a great singer who
Speaker:doesn't really write. They're just looking for great songs
Speaker:versus a band that's been together for 30 years, that they have a thing
Speaker:and they're just like, looking for a different flavor. There's two different types of producers
Speaker:that are going to take on those situations, and that's just very true.
Speaker:Those are two different jobs. Not to say there's not a person out there that
Speaker:can do both of them, but you're going to put a different hat on to
Speaker:do those two. Yeah, well said, for sure. Okay, before we
Speaker:go, we were just talking about the most human of human producers now
Speaker:let's talk about the least human thing possible. Good segue.
Speaker:Yeah. AI. Right, so I was thinking about
Speaker:this. We chatted about it before we started. I don't really have a question here,
Speaker:but I feel like AI is coming to every
Speaker:industry. I think it's going to be a little bit slower to come to music,
Speaker:but it's going to be here one day, and I think it's going to affect
Speaker:who works and who doesn't. What do you think is going to make
Speaker:a person, whether they're an engineer, a mixer or
Speaker:producer, still valuable as these AI tools
Speaker:come? Yeah, it's a total relevant,
Speaker:heavy question that everybody's thinking of in every single
Speaker:industry. I think that the short
Speaker:answer to me, as someone who doesn't have the answers and
Speaker:is just as apprehensive of it and
Speaker:excited about AI, I love all this stuff is, I think,
Speaker:people. And of course, I'm immediately
Speaker:reminded to myself of one of my favorite moments in the
Speaker:movie office space, where the one dude is, like, trying to preserve his
Speaker:job by explaining that I'm a people person.
Speaker:I'm good with people. Sure you are, buddy. Yeah. But
Speaker:I think that that is, at least
Speaker:for recording and the
Speaker:capturing of ideas
Speaker:we've already seen with no disrespect or slight
Speaker:whatsoever to the amazing mastering engineers that I love
Speaker:working with and continue to. But there is a field that companies
Speaker:are, and have been for a while, aggressively pursuing as a sort of
Speaker:automated thing with limited results. Again, I
Speaker:think much like our beat detective sort of
Speaker:chat, it's maybe kind of a similar thing. If you're in a low
Speaker:budget time crunch, there's some pretty neat tools out there.
Speaker:But when you're working on your
Speaker:life's work and your next album or
Speaker:your first album, and there's a
Speaker:difference between that and just sort of work that we sometimes do for
Speaker:volume's sake. And I don't mean like vu volume. I mean, like, got to
Speaker:get all these cues out for a deadline that's, you know, and they need to
Speaker:be. So I hope and think that those
Speaker:relational connections, the teasing
Speaker:out in person of those ghosts we were
Speaker:talking about, and creating a space for artists
Speaker:to feel open to record,
Speaker:creating a space that's free, hopefully, of
Speaker:technical difficulties, where all the headphone mixes sound
Speaker:amazing, right? And you can really just plop down,
Speaker:hit record and experiment and talk about it and
Speaker:choose the most meaningful takes. And I say meaningful. Trying to
Speaker:think of, like, well, how would a computer choose the best takes?
Speaker:And as we've already discussed, there is a difference between
Speaker:perfection and intonation and rhythm and
Speaker:what moves you emotionally.
Speaker:Certainly some AI could, and probably already has
Speaker:dissected the entire history of the
Speaker:billboard catalog to see
Speaker:what these things have in common or whatnot. But I have to think that
Speaker:making records is a lot of fun for all its
Speaker:vulnerabilities and technical
Speaker:difficulties and long hours and whatever, but it is
Speaker:fun and it's an amazing way to connect with other people,
Speaker:just kind of by nature of what it is.
Speaker:I hope that those qualities will give
Speaker:it some longevity. And all the while,
Speaker:like I say, I love technology and I'm
Speaker:excited in my own way about all the cool AI
Speaker:stuff that's happening, so I try not to be too
Speaker:salem witch trials about this stuff. I
Speaker:agree. Yeah. It's actually funny listening to you talk about
Speaker:it. I think what we were just talking about with that old school classic producer
Speaker:people like Rick that are very in touch with the human aspect.
Speaker:I feel like that's the thing that you're never going to lose. And maybe
Speaker:AI will actually be a little bit freeing
Speaker:for the producer engineer that wants
Speaker:to not have to focus so much on those technicals
Speaker:and can start to play that more human role. Maybe it'll
Speaker:actually allow everybody to be part of that emotional,
Speaker:artistic conversation and not have to worry about exactly
Speaker:what's going on with this or that. And we'll have our AI headphone
Speaker:mixer assistant and get the coffee runner.
Speaker:But that's very cool prediction. That's really
Speaker:interesting. Yeah. In worst case, you and I can start an AI headphone mixer company
Speaker:and we'll be good. Why not stamp the TM right on. That's
Speaker:right. Ideas taken, people. It's taken. That's right. Back
Speaker:off. Awesome, dude. This has been a lot of fun. Let me hit you with
Speaker:the last questions, because I know you're mixing like 10,000 projects. Yeah. And you got
Speaker:to get to work. And you've got a kid and I've got a kid. We
Speaker:got a lot of stuff going on. Yeah. So I don't know how much you've
Speaker:listened to the show, but the first question I like to close with is, was
Speaker:there a time in your career where you chose to redefine what success meant to
Speaker:you? Every day, man. Every day.
Speaker:It's a true answer. Yeah. It's something that
Speaker:is considered almost daily or
Speaker:think, you know, probably an answer you've heard a lot is know, being
Speaker:able to do any of this is a real know.
Speaker:To be able to work in the music industry in a
Speaker:town like LA, where so much has happened, and
Speaker:to kind of rub shoulders with awesome people, whether
Speaker:they're famous or just awesome because they're awesome, is
Speaker:really remarkable. Let's see when I
Speaker:changed what it means. It's a
Speaker:great question. It's a thinker. It is a thinker.
Speaker:There's probably age and fatherhood and things like
Speaker:that. Redefine certain things or
Speaker:prioritize different things. Covid
Speaker:certainly changed and reprioritized different things.
Speaker:I think for me, it's just always been the
Speaker:surroundings are constantly changing. But I think that
Speaker:my idea of success has fairly
Speaker:remained unchanged in just that. If I can just
Speaker:keep doing this thing, this thing that I get to
Speaker:do professionally for money, is also this
Speaker:thing that I just can't get enough of anyway.
Speaker:Like, I love it. I've just always been just enamored by music.
Speaker:So that's always the goal. The success goal is just
Speaker:to just hang on a little longer.
Speaker:It feels good to get to work in your passion and have that be your
Speaker:job, and we all feel fortunate and lucky.
Speaker:Yeah, for sure. And the last question I've got for you, before I let you
Speaker:get back to work, what is your current biggest goal and what is the next
Speaker:smallest step you're going to take to go towards it? Oh, man.
Speaker:I've been spending a lot of time thinking about that. I
Speaker:think that aside from
Speaker:some fantastic projects that I'm in the midst
Speaker:of that. My next step being just working on the mixes and getting them
Speaker:out. I think the next biggest
Speaker:goal has been this platform, the mixed protege
Speaker:stuff. Making courses has been something
Speaker:that's been a goal for a while and has been
Speaker:happening, and that's really, really neat. I've always loved
Speaker:teaching. That's always been a part of my
Speaker:life. But as a saxophone teacher in high school,
Speaker:and certainly my first gigs out in LA were
Speaker:consulting studios. Changing from tape to pro tools
Speaker:or working with different clients comes natural for me,
Speaker:getting other people fired up about what they can
Speaker:do in their studio. And I love seeing
Speaker:people that light turn on.
Speaker:I think that my current goal is
Speaker:to keep finding wonderful people
Speaker:who are fired up about their
Speaker:own recording and producing and mixing journeys
Speaker:and, yeah, the next little steps toward that. That's kind of what
Speaker:I work on late at night. I'm a night owl. I get
Speaker:my ladies to bed, as I call it, my wife and my
Speaker:daughter. And then I spend
Speaker:countless hours working in the living room, just on the
Speaker:laptop, figuring out how to
Speaker:bring value to the folks who are in
Speaker:that mix protege platform that's awesome. Which this
Speaker:is probably one of the earlier mentions of it. It's something
Speaker:that I've been doing for my assistants for a while
Speaker:to train my mix prep
Speaker:setup so that I'm not always doing that in person. And
Speaker:the vocal production class is in there now, and I've got forums and I'm
Speaker:doing, like, live mixing. Very cool. When I'm working with an artist
Speaker:who's agreed to it, can I live stream some of what I'm working on on
Speaker:your project to my mixed protege crew? So
Speaker:just really trying to keep them stoked and be a
Speaker:helpful source for people who are trying to up their game. Cool,
Speaker:man. That's awesome. Well, before we go, let people know where they
Speaker:can find you if they want to work together. If they want to learn more
Speaker:about mixed protege, whatever you got, you should throw it out there. Cool.
Speaker:My website is Dana nielsen.com. Last
Speaker:name is Nielsen.
Speaker:And that's where people can. I've got a little form
Speaker:to start a project inquiry. If you want me to kind of the
Speaker:do it for you services of producing, mixing,
Speaker:engineering, et cetera. And then if you want to
Speaker:learn with me and hang out as part of the
Speaker:community, that's mixedprotige.com and
Speaker:love to say hi. Come say hi, shoot me a message or
Speaker:sign up for free, or send me your project
Speaker:inquiry on my site and. Nice. I've got openings in
Speaker:2044.
Speaker:No, I'm teasing. I'd love to hear from anybody. And
Speaker:that's part of what's fun about honestly. Lastly, that's part
Speaker:of the mixed protege thing is like, I get a lot of
Speaker:incredible requests. I love working with independent artists.
Speaker:I love helping them release and do all that stuff.
Speaker:And I get a lot of requests on Dana nielsen.com
Speaker:and there's so many times when I just don't have the bandwidth.
Speaker:But if you're doing it yourself, come hang out
Speaker:over here. I'm in there every day
Speaker:checking in on forums and stuff like that, learning together.
Speaker:People upload their mixes and I try to
Speaker:respond, as does the community, like, oh, this is
Speaker:awesome. Try this or that. So it's another way. Well, it's
Speaker:not the do it for you service that I can't do at the
Speaker:moment. It's at least a way to stay connected and share some ideas,
Speaker:and it's a nice alternative to offer people when times are
Speaker:busy. That's cool, man. That's awesome. Well, this has been a great hang. We'll have
Speaker:to get some coffee or something. Yes. With our embers we'll bring our embers
Speaker:somewhere in LA, love it, and make them fill it. Let's do that. That
Speaker:would be perfect. And then we should film it and tag Ember.
Speaker:Ember. We are accepting sponsorships mixed protege and progressions.
Speaker:We're open. Yes. And we need seed money for the AI headphone
Speaker:company. So any VC investors. We're open to that
Speaker:as well. As long as you also have an ember. That's right. Cool. Awesome,
Speaker:man. Synergy.
